The thing is, this conversation somehow centered on boys reactions, probably because of the angle in the original article or claimed excuse by the school. Having fond memories of my middle school years, what girls wore was just as big a distraction to other females (even now), because clothes were a big deal and they loved them. You had your popular kids (girls and boys) who were popular largely because of what they looked like, which would include their clothing and level of attractiveness. People typically envied them and talked about them, because of the attention they received and the social groups they’d hang with. The older (or closer to HS they were), the more influence they had, which for them, meant they wanted to act and dress like adults (or wear less/expensive clothing and make grownup decisions, because those deviated as much as possible from “kid stuff”).
It was very common for girls to notice minute details that many boys would overlook, because there was a lot of comparing going on then, with attempts to get attention, fit in, or otherwise. It also produced bullying and ridicule among the girls, similar to how boys would do so to each other, for their own reasons. Especially when it came to competing for attention from the opposite sex, it would cause tons of social conflict, often times physical.
Experiences may be different for others, but I can’t help but see more than a few angles in this discussion, when it comes to why we have dress codes. The majority of what I’ve seen are definitely not gender-biased, and tend to focus on a current issue the school is dealing with. It’s sort of like a game of whack-a-mole, where if someone or thing stands out too much (which students perpetually do, in order to individualize themselves), it gets a new, sometimes arbitrary, rule to handle it. There are too many examples which contradict the idea of gender-bias, in this context, to suggest that it’s just a female shaming problem. As I said before, that’s conflating and possibly devaluing a real issue.
But I think the mother needs to complain about the dress code, not about the enforcement.
All that bitching about the enforcement does is solidify in the kid’s mind that rules don’t apply to her. Not the lesson I’d want to teach to my kid (or to our society).
Then maybe you need to tell your family not to choose to come across like they value their adopted son less than their biological daughter and then we won’t take it that way.
Boys’ seldom cut. My son isn’t at all at risk for it. My daughter has a friend in treatment for it. Body image is big in middle school for girls (infrequently for boys - but when it is a big deal for boys, its an even bigger challenge), and I don’t want my daughter to be ashamed of hers.
On the other hand, my son has gotten in trouble with drugs and alcohol - so we are continually working out on stamping out as many signals in his behavior which could impact his drug dependencies. i.e. sending out an image to other students that he could get his hands on weed or is a kid who should be offered it. One of those signals is sagging. He is also not encouraged to challenge authority - because his choices when choosing which rules to break in the past have been very bad choices that are very poorly thought out. He has lost those privileges.
If my daughter had trouble with drugs and alcohol instead of the issues she has (anxiety and depression), her own rules would be significantly tightened and she would not be permitted to challenge authority to the extent that she does - instead she is encouraged to do so to overcome her issues and support her confidence. But her issues are not his issues, and his issues are not her issues - and each child’s issues need to be responded to appropriately for the child - they aren’t cookie cutter children. Turns out the things you do for a geeky kid with anxiety and depression whose sexuality is not mainstream are different than the things you do for a kid with chemical abuse issues who has issues with mindfulness and empathy. Even if they both had anxiety and depression - they would still be different people who’d respond to different treatment.
(Because someone will say it - his drug issues did not stem from anxiety or depression - we’ve spent some time in therapy with him - his issues stem from “I don’t give a fuck right now because I’m in middle school” - i.e. a lack of empathy and consideration of consequences and a desire to fit in (now he’s in High School) and we’ve seen a lot of improvement over the past year as his brain moves past the middle school larval stage of development - we hope it sticks. )
And that is probably more than I feel comfortable sharing about the mental health of and the mental health treatment plans for my children.
Dangerosa. first, wanted to thank you for posting in this thread. While I do not agree with your parenting style as presented here, I very much appreciate you being willing to articulate your position. I expect that if I opened up about my personal parenting philosophies, I would catch hell as well, because everyone is an expert on parenting on the Internet (especially those without children).
That being said, I hoped to get clarification on a single point as it is relevant to the thread. On what grounds was your daughter exempted from the school dress code? Because if is one thing I hate more than arbitrary, draconian rules, it is arbitrarily deciding to not enforce them, especially if a parent is a squeaky wheel. I am really not seeing the conscientious objection loophole that might allow for spaghetti straps or bootie shorts.
And second, as a college administrator, I deal with lots of kids that got ‘special treatment’ in middle and high school, often due to squeaky wheel parents. Once I get them, they learn very quickly that mom and dad have no standing when it comes to appealing the rules, and that flouting rules as a form of protest quickly leads them to not be back next semester. So, do you feel as though your (and this is a general you, not your family specifically) daughter’s self-esteem trumps her learning the ability to cope with rules that she does not like?
Well you can fight against entrenched stupidity, but it takes a while to win, and often you don’t win at all. (Points to the motto of the website.) So while what you are proposing makes sense long term, in the short term, maybe it’s kind of a waste of time and effort.
We weren’t told. My husband asked that the dress code be removed for all girls for the occasion, as it had been in the past. We were told not to worry about it for our daughter.
I would assume that your college does not have a dress code. If it did, it would not be a college our daughter would attend - it isn’t appropriate to have such a thing in a college environment. If you are talking about other rules - my daughter turns in her assignments on time and according to the rubric (well, on time is often a problem, but she doesn’t get special treatment for it). She is not tardy to class. She does not get special treatment. We have kept her off a 504 and IEP that she qualifies for being ADHD because we don’t want her to become a special snowflake that can’t function in a college environment.
The other things we have challenged is her right to symbolic free speech, and her right to speak out in class when the teacher is spouting bullshit on creationism, global warming, psuedoscience, etc. Our first run in of this nature had to do with a teacher who thought it was appropriate to challenge my Unitarian atheist telling her she couldn’t go to church and be an atheist - if she went to church she MUST believe in God. That isn’t correct - and it isn’t an appropriate argument for a public school teacher to have with a student in front of the classroom.
The “exemption” was for an event, not from the everyday dress code? I’m not so sure I would have considered that an exemption- it could just as easily be that the school felt they knew you/your daughter well enough to know that 1) the straps combined with the rest of the outfit wouldn’t actually be inappropriate by their standards * and/or that 2) one of you would feel as though the tiniest deviance would be considered a violation (although the school knows they’re not going to take a ruler out to find every skirt that is only 1.75 inches below the knee or a tank top with straps only two and seven-eighths inches wide). Yes, the line is arbitrary , but it has to be. They can’t just depend on each person’s idea of “appropriate” or else you end up with a 10 year old showing up to a Girl Scout ceremony in a strapless gown ( true story- although she did have a shawl). But that doesn’t mean they can’t rely on your taste.
I’m not even sure based on some of the things you’ve said (you don’t like to see underwear, including your daughter’s bra straps, the two vs three inch requirement for tank straps, and your daughter’s preferred style of dress) that you even mean the same thing by “spaghetti straps” that I understand. Because the only bra that can be worn with spaghetti straps is a strapless bra
someone earlier linked to a photo of “hooker shorts”. I don’t think it’s the shorts that are the problem in that outfit- it’s the shorts plus the heels.
Thankfully, our college does not, though each instructor may, if they choose, set out what they consider to be proper conduct within the confines of their classroom, and that includes dress. I have encountered issues with these policies, but generally they skew toward the 'showing waaay too much skin, or a ban on pajamas, rather than anything political in nature. Believe it or not, this is protected by statute as part of ‘academic integrity.’ Barring outright harassment, a professor is pretty much the ruler of his classroom. Of course, these expectations are set out in the syllabus, and the student can always choose to take another instructor for the course, when available.
Appreciate your further explanation. I guess I am just of the mindset that life is not fair, and the sooner kids figure that out, the better. Yes, you can be a squeaky wheel and usually get your way at the public school level. And yes, you can choose your college based on your personal criteria. But employment? What happens when confronted by a crazy supervisor operating within the rules? Do you advocate quitting? Lawsuits? As I said, I encounter students like this a lot, and many of them choose to remain unemployed for not being able to find the right ‘fit’ for them. I do not find your solution particularly adaptive or realistic in a situation when you are not the consumer. Better kids learn, yes, people can be unreasonable, and sometimes you can’t fight, so do what you have to do, get your ticket punched, and then let it go.
Not clear from the email whether the exception was for the event or eternity - there were four days left in the school year and she moves to high school. I suspect it was for the remainder of the school year and treated it as such (although I’d never fingertip checked her shorts before this,either)
So, if life isn’t fair because based on the color of your skin, you can’t sit at the lunch counter with other people because … I don’t know, I never heard a reason for that that wasn’t complete bullshit - you should accept that because “life isn’t fair?” Or if you can’t marry the person you love, but you are free to marry anyone you want as long as they agree and are of the opposite sex, suck it up - life isn’t fair? Or if you live in Saudi Arabia and can’t drive because you are a woman - well, life isn’t fair?
It’s hilarious to me that you remark that you don’t want your daughter turning into a special snowflake when you seem to be going out of your way to make sure that happens. Of course, it’s convenient that it’s just the kind of snowflake (the Doctor Who shirt-wearing atheist Unitarian feminist lesbian dress-code challenging geek and proud of it) that you approve of. Your (adopted, less smart, Hangover II-loving - but don’t worry, not worse, just different, I mean, he’s good with music!) son’s similar challenges to authority are shot down. Because baggy pants conflict with your values.
Ultimately your dress code is as arbitrary as the school’s. Thing is, it’s generally the school’s prerogative what kind of dress code it wants to enforce at school, just like it’s your prerogative what kind of dress code you want to enforce at home. And the school saying that skirts can’t be under a certain length, or whatever, isn’t contributing to your daughter’s friend’s self-harm, and you and your daughter aren’t brave warriors standing against injustice for challenging it anymore than your son is.
An asshole, sure. But a colossal asshole?
Maybe you should focus on why people are interpreting the situation that way rather than taking the opportunity to appear only so you can then disappear in a puff of indignation.
I’m chiming in late, I know, but I’m struggling to understand what your son being adopted has to with school dress codes, Dangerosa. I know you’ve mentioned it plenty of times in other threads. But never before has it seemed so jarring to me.
