"My Daughter Was Dress-Coded For Wearing Shorts"

In My Humble Opinion
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For fourteen years, Dangerosa has been posting pretty candidly about her own peculiar family dynamics, and the way adopted vs biological ties form and interact. When the kids we are talking about were infants, she was talking about how she bonded more easily and automatically with her son, and the process with her daughter proceeded in fits and starts. As her kids have grown, she’s spoken about issues relating to adoption, especially international adoption and the novel status of having both a bio and adopted child within a few months of the same age. She’s educated tons of people, and patiently debunked the same myths over and over again. Through all of that, she’s demonstrated insight, compassion, and understanding–and while she’s periodically been more frustrated with one kid or the other, there’s never been a hint of favoritism.

I swear to god, if fourteen years of context don’t protect you from having people cherry-pick out your words and put the worst possible spin on them, I don’t know what does.

It’s quite plausible to have one kid who is bucking a particular rule because he’s being a shit and needs to be pulled short, and it’s quite possible to have another kid who is bucking the rules because he has a sincerely held ethical objection and needs support. It’s also quite possible to encourage kids to challenge some unjust rules and to teach them to suck it up and accept that life is unfair in other cases. I cannot wrap my mind around the parenting philosophy that would suggest you have to back every kid in challenging every authority, or teach them all to obey all rules without question.

I often disagree with Dangerosa. We co-post on the same threads a lot, and we rarely agree. I am talking about fourteen years of disagreeing directly with each other almost weekly. Despite fourteen years of near-constant public interaction, we aren’t friends, we don’t PM, we’ve hardly ever even acknowledged that we see each other in a LOT of the same threads. But it’s ridiculous to suggest that she isn’t sincerely invested in both her kids, or that she doesn’t think long and hard about what’s best for each of their kids–not what they want, but what they need from her to develop into their best selves. The fact that she’s decided they need different things, not cookie-cutter treatment, is a testament to her as a parent, not a condemnation.

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Well, because I am a reasonably rational adult, I can make a distinction between mutable and immutable characteristics, and can make distinction between differences of thought vs. differences in action. Also bear in mind that I believe that a vital component of civil disobedience is facing the prescribed punishment for breaking the rules, not breaking them and then trying to weasel out of the consequences.

The vast majority of rules in life are arbitrary. Just because we can delve into their underpinnings to find out why, does not mean that, in the end, someone with either a gun or the gold decided that this was how it was to be. Sometimes, it’s worth fighting against. But dress code does not even come close to pinging my meter for that. I do not consider mode of dress while in school to be anywhere close to a ‘civil right’ for children. I certainly do not consider it one for myself during my work hours. We can disagree on that, but I hope that clarifies my position.

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It’s what separates us from the animals. Except for the weasels.

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I hope they do. Because the key difference is your daughter will leave school one day while someone discriminated against for being black or gay is facing a lifetime of discrimination and/or oppression for who they are rather than a mildly restricted fashion choice, an inconvenience. I hope, and if I worshipped a deity I’d pray, that ten years from now where ever life leads her, this isn’t something your daughter talks about with total seriousness, like it was relevant or important. To be an adult and thinking that when you fought the dress code in middle school so the girls could show a bit of leg and wasn’t that cool? What a horrible human being that person would be.

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Nothing to do with the school dress code, everything to do with the question, which is do we treat our children differently and why. Adoptive parents often spend a lot of times wondering what is nature and what is nurture, if their children would have the issues they had without adoption. Add in a bio kid and you start wondering if you treat your children differently because one is bio. Add in different genders and you start wondering if you treat your kids differently because of their gender. Add in kids with different special needs and…

But the reality is, you treat your kids differently because they need to be treated differently and want to be treated differently. My son responded to time outs as a young child, my daughter never did and required removal of privileges. My son is a talented athlete and doesn’t need encouragement to move, my daughter would sit on the couch all day - but she doesn’t need to have a reading goal in the summer, he does. Likewise, he is encouraged to take up as many instruments as he wants, he’s talented, and practices without me chasing him - she’s had her opportunities - and I’m done paying for lessons so I can yell at her to practice. She requires stricter bedtimes because she doesn’t operate well on little sleep - he can. She loves to travel - we are taking two trips together this summer - he didn’t want to go so he’s staying home with Grandma - if it were the beach, he’d go, he likes to sit on a beach, but hates touring and museums. She needs to do extra math to get a B, which she hates, he just needs to make sure he turns in homework in math. But she can pound out a college level analysis of a book she’s read and is the MVP on the knowledgebowl team, he really struggles with deconstruction and struggles to remember trivia.

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Oh, I forgot race - the kids are different races. In most of the country our Asian kid gets the model minority label and the pass that grants on dealing with authority - on this end of St. Paul we have a Hmong gang issues. We’ve never had to tell our daughter about the racial undercurrents of getting stopped by a policeman driving her father’s Mercedes - she is white and female - people will assume she is driving her father’s Mercedes. There is a good chance that if he is stopped, the same policeman assumes its stolen. He’s Asian, male, and dresses like a thug in sagging pants and hoodies - and now has a possession charge on his juvi record.

I’m sure you can appreciate the challenges two white people have in explaining this to their non-white child.

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Does he have a possession charge because of his dress or because he possessed illegal drugs?

Surely I have misunderstood your objection to your son’s dress. Is your suggestion that he stop wearing baggy pants so that he may get away with possessing drugs in the future? It sounds like his dress is the result of his lifestyle choices and not the root cause.

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Can you appreciate why people might feel that you’re perpetuating this injustice by championing your daughter’s rights for self-styling, but not your son’s?

I understand that your son has broken rules that your daughter hasn’t. But I’m really curious. If your daughter’s style of dress prompted the police to profile her as a sex worker, would this compel you to concede to the school’s dress code? Or would you still allow her to be herself, because fuck the police and their old-fashioned morality?

If your son didn’t have a juvie record and was the “model” minority in every way except for the baggie jeans, would you give him the same license that you would your daughter?

Your answers may help people figure out how unreasonable or reasonable you’re being. (I assume that you’re being reasonable, because you strike me as an overall reasonable person. But I gotta be honest. Some of your comments have been a bit eye-brow raising…just as an outsider looking in.)

I feel sorry for your son. I know you’re trying to do your best by him and I know that it’s been hard, but it must really suck to be reminded of your minority status even in your own home. I’m sure my brother got a different set of lectures than his sisters did growing up. He grew up before the baggy pants style, but I’m sure my parents worried about him getting profiled as a thug just by hanging out with his friends and listening to loud rap music. But his sisters weren’t given more freedom than he was, since my parents didn’t believe perceived as a “thug” is worse than being seeing as a “prostitute” or a “slut”. In fact, my mother worried more about the latter than the former. Thugs can be redeemed. But once a ho, always a ho.

Once when I was nineteen, I was walking down the street in a tie-dyed t-shirt and my hair wild and curly-fro’ed. A couple of white guys pulled up alongside me and asked if I knew where they could get weed. They could have been undercover cops or just some random white guys. Either way, I suspect I was being racially profiled. I dunno how I would have felt if my parents had used this episode to illustrate the importance of keeping my hair relaxed and wearing less bohemian clothes.

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This assumes that my daughters dress is over the line into sex worker. I challenge the schools dress code, that doesn’t mean that my daughter is allowed to wear whatever she wants or dress like a street walker - for the very reasons you state. Its that I feel her parents are the authority that gets to determine what is in good taste, not the school. Somewhere, people have assumed that means my daughter is going to school in short shorts and stripper heels and that she is allowed to wear whatever she wants. She would tell you that is very much not the case.

She would also tell you that she’s gotten plenty of discussions on the double edge sword of female dress - that for her own SAFETY she must be aware of how she presents herself. HOWEVER, within the confines of school, it is the schools job to make sure she is safe and not harassed - not to make the “boys will be boys” excuse. There is a big difference between the expectations she should have for how others treat her in school, and how she should expect men to treat her at a SF Con (where I don’t let her go because they are still educating that ‘costumes are not consent’ :rolleyes:).

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Everything else aside, the original argument wasn’t “girls shouldn’t wear shorts because people will think they are sluts”. The original argument way “girls shouldn’t wear shorts because the boys will get erections and be distracted from their studies”.

A more direct comparison would be if people said “minority kids shouldn’t dress like thugs because it makes the white kids feel threatened, and threatened kids can’t focus on learning”.

That said, I do think a lot of dress codes are basically racist: black fashion is “gang related” and seen as a problem, whereas white fashions are “quirky” and allowed. If I had a kid making that argument, I’d be every bit as sympathetic as to a girl defensive about being asked to cover her body because of boys’ libidos.

On the other hand, there are girls who want to buck the dress code just because they prefer to relate to boys in a hyper-sexualized mode and overcome their social anxiety by premptively objectifying themselves. That girl, I wouldn’t let buck the dress code with impunity because it’s not coming from a healthy place.

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An example of my daughters shorts that are too racy to wear to school because they don’t reach below her fingertips, but which I think should be appropriate for a middle school girl to wear.

(She owns a pair very much like this by the way).

http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/horizon-cargo-skort/23151052/_/A-ebSku_0310780283001020__23151052_catalog10002_en__US?showProducts=&backToCat=Skirts%20_%20Skorts&previousPage=&tab=women&dcolor=283

pair it with this top, for which the sleeves are not three fingers wide, and you have a completely inappropriate middle school outfit…

http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/travex-aster-tank-top/23150149/_/A-ebSku_0310453968000080__23150149_catalog10002_en__US?showProducts=&backToCat=Tops&previousPage=SCAT&tab=women&dcolor=968

Now, monstro, is my daughter in danger of having the police think she’s a streetwalker, or is she in danger of them thinking she plays too much golf at the country club?

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True.

But if a school decided to ban racially inflammatory symbols or language (the Confederate flag, the swastika, or “It’s a black thang…you wouldn’t understand”) on the grounds that such things are distracting, I would have no problem with this policy. Because they are intentionally provocative and they do distract from the educational purpose of school.

I don’t know if spaghetti straps and yoga pants are intentionally provocative. But Juicy pants certainly are. Booty shorts certainly are. Sheer halter tops certainly are.

So while I think schools should be careful not to cater to only heterosexual male notions “distractability”, I think some of the arguments here are overwrought. Kids, by definition, are not mature enough to screen out extraneous information. They can learn how to tune out distractions, sure. But if we’re expecting them to successfully learn physics, Chinese, calculus, Russian poetry, and basketweaving, then SOMETHING has got to give. I don’t have a problem with a school deciding that the thing that has to give is a hem line or the width of shoulder strap, as long as that’s not all they’re targeting.

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My daughter is not permitted to OWN those things at 14, much less wear them out of the house. Since I’m the one with the credit card, she doesn’t buy too much without me there.

I’d add, anything midriff bearing is right out. She has a few, she wears something under them. A crochet knit or lace top (Crochet Knit Sweater - Omiru: Style for All) must have more under them than a bra - although she’s likely to be ok in a cami that wouldn’t be ok without the crochet knit over it, and the bra straps are probably well enough camouflaged to let slip - particularly hers since she is still at the itty bitty bra stage of life, her straps really don’t amount to much and are pretty easily hidden - some of my straps might pass the three finger rule.

She has worn heels to school on two occasions, but they have to be special occasions - both these involved semi formal dances after school. She borrows mine (same shoe size!) - which are probably a little on the tallish end for middle school (they are, however, NOT stripper shoes or even clubbing shoes, but shoes you can wear in a corporate job - which is where my shoes get worn most), but I’m not buying a growing girl shoes she’ll wear once when she fits into mine.

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If your daughter was endowed with big buttocks and ginormous breasts and her hair and make-up were done a certain way, then she might just communicate to someone “I’m a big slut!” while wearing those clothes, sure. Your daughter maybe on the slenderish, athletic side. She may not do the big hair and make-up thing. So she can pass as a country club type. I don’t know. But I can easily see someone else being perceived as a slut while being just as innocent as she is.

I wouldn’t have a problem with a school saying that a skirt the length of the Eddie Bauer skort is not appropriate. Maybe such a skirt looks fine and is not at all distracting on 50% of the girls who wear it. But for the remainder–for whatever reason-- there’s way too much jiggling flesh and panty-flashing going on for it not to be distracting in a classroom setting.

And it’s not just heterosexual males who get distracted by jiggling flesh and panty-flashing. I’m sure teachers, both male and female, don’t want to see all that while they’re doing their jobs. And I doubt that a girl who is constantly worried about whether her panties are showing can concentrate very hard on her lessons. Lots of people can be distracted by distracting clothing. Not just horny males.

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At my daughter’s school that IS all they are targeting.

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Which is part of the issue - frankly, Marilyn Monroe looked like sex on a stick in a sweater. Some young women ooze sex - it doesn’t MATTER what they wear, they are distracting - I find them distracting and I’m a 47 year old fairly straight woman. So all women should be restricted from wearing a turtleneck because some women are distracting in a turtleneck? No women should wear lipstick because the moment Angelina Jolie puts a little gloss on those lips even straight women have impure thoughts? Where exactly does the line get drawn, a burqa? I’m NOT ok with that.

And different people find different things sexually attractive. I would find someone with ginormous breast and a large butt a turn off in that outfit…if anything, it would be distracting in that whole “oh, honey, you really need to dress better for your body type.” That slender, athletic 14 year old female body is exactly what I think many people are afraid of.

And its a skort - if her panties are showing in a skort, any girl is far more talented at flashing panties than a mere dress code will stop.

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I appreciate you telling me all this. But I wasn’t addressing your daughter’s dressing preferences. Plenty of teenager girls DO wear booty shorts and halter tops to school. I was talking about these girls.

I remember what it was like in middle/high school. Classmates would regularly flout the dress code. Maybe their mothers didn’t know this was how they dressed at school, or maybe they did and fully endorsed their choices, just as you do for your daughter. I’m sure my principals dealt with a lot of angry mothers on a regular basis. But which angry mother should they have listened to? The angry mother who is tired of seeing of “sluts and hos” prancing around the schoolyard? Or the angry mother who is tired of the school administrators treating her daughter like she’s a slut or ho?

You trust that you’re raising your daughter with the appropriate sensibilities and values, and I trust that you are. But every mother believes the same about herself. How are schools supposed to handle such a diversity of parental values? At some point, shouldn’t the school have room to say, “From the hours of 8:00 to 3:00, we’re in charge. Outside of that, your kids can dress anyway you want, but during these hours, they’re going to reflect our values.” As long as those values are consistently applied and are not totally unreasonable, I seriously don’t get the big deal.

What a crazy slippery slope you’ve slipped down.

If all girls were Marilyn Monroe, you might have a point. But most girls aren’t Marilyn Monroe. To illicit “Marilyn Monroe”-levels of arousal and distraction, most girls are going to have to do more than wear a turtle neck sweater. There’s a big difference between jeans and a t-shirt on an average body than, say, short shorts and a skin-tight tank-top. Even Olive Oyl looks like a hottie wearing short shorts and a skin-tight tanktop. A school should have the freedom to say, “If an outfit makes Olive Oyl turn heads like she’s Marily Monroe, then this outfit is probably way too distracting for our classrooms.”

I think anything that elicits a strong reaction, whether it be “Oh, honey, NO!” or “Oh, honey, YES!” is distracting in a learning environment. Most people may be more afraid of the latter, but the former is just as problematic.

Which is why the older I get, the more school uniforms seem like an excellent idea.

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You seem to have an issue with some girls bodies being distracting - and frankly, I don’t think a “no fat chicks” rule is going to fly. Why are we only worried about sexy girls bodies being sexually distracting - and not the ugly girls, or the fat girls, or the black girls being distracting for being who they are? (And quite honestly, a lot of the subtext here is that my slim white daughter is fine, but a girl who has hit puberty early and in a big way - as many African American and Latina girls do, but fewer white girls like my daughter - is suddenly inappropriately sexual simply for needing a bra in sixth grade. Seems to me that’s a lot of OTHER PEOPLE’S baggage to expect an eleven year old girl to carry for them)

Are dread’s distracting? Tulsa Elementary School Sends Girl Home Over "Distracting" Dreadlocks

How about weight: Dress Code Discrimination: Different Figure, Different Rules? | HuffPost Women

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Just wanted to say I agree with this sentiment 100%. I also find it to be good preparation for adult life, wherein one’s employers are the ones that set acceptable norms, and regardless of actual job performance, can be a significant factor when it comes to hiring, promotion, and retention of employees. Again, divorcing this from some of your bad experiences when it comes to teachers holding forth on political topics or expressing bigotry, restricting this only to dress code as a concept.

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I am a librarian at a public university in the United States and we have multiple types of dress code that students, faculty, and staff must adhere to and all of which are completely appropriate for a college environment.