My definition of woke

[puzzlegal]

I’m saying that “performance” is a category that includes more than “did well on academic tests”. And yes, that the difference between scoring 700 and 800 on the current SATs isn’t very significant in “overall performance”. Of course you’ll see lower test scores in groups that offer something other than “high test scores”. (I’m combining GPA and standardized tests when i say, “test scores”.)

I’m sure the athletes, the tuba players, and the students from North Dakota also have lower test scores than the “average” student.

[DemonTree]

@DocCathode

We do disagree what exactly ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’ mean. However, there are signicant portions of the definition we do agree on.

‘Woke’ is on the other hand, so excedngly vague and nebulous it is impossible to know what somebody means when they use it.

It’s perfectly true that ‘woke’ is overused, but I bet reasonable people would mostly agree on what is and isn’t woke. ‘Social justice’ ideas and left-wing identity politics are woke, trade unions and socialism are not.

[DemonTree]

@puzzlegal

Of course you’ll see lower test scores in groups that offer something other than “high test scores”. (I’m combining GPA and standardized tests when i say, “test scores”.)

What are they offering exactly that white and Asian students aren’t, and that can’t be identified without a box on a form telling you their race??

[puzzlegal]

It depends. Excellence in a sport/musical instrument/leadership/artistic expression. And yes, diversity of experience.

That being said, i think Harvard is discriminating against Asians. Not just selecting other students who have something interesting to offer, but trying not to have a class that looks “too Asian”. And you can’t do that without knowing which students look Asian. And to be clear, i think this is a bad thing.

(On the other hand, the Asian girl i interviewed this fall was accepted. I’m glad, i lobbied for her on my interview form. She’s very ambitious, and has a clear goal of how she wants to use Harvard’s resources to advance her ambitions.)

[DocCathode]

@DemonTree

It’s perfectly true that ‘woke’ is overused, but I bet reasonable people would mostly agree on what is and isn’t woke.

I disagree rather strongly. In the parent GD thread, the posters could not agree on a definition. You started this thread to give a definition. At over 400 posts later, there is no agreed upon definition.

@DemonTree

‘Social justice’ ideas and left-wing identity politics are woke, trade unions and socialism are not.

According to who? I would agree that trade unions are not “woke”. But would say that socialism is.

[Babale]

@Thing.Fish

A simple example: people in poor Black communities have difficulty accessing health care, in part because relatively few doctors want to serve those communities. Obviously, then, we need to train doctors who do want to serve those communities, and those are likely to be people who have roots in those communities. Therefore, it is a benefit to the public health to make it as easy as possible for qualified applicants from poor Black communities to get into medical school.

Yeah, that’s a fantastic example of a time when we’d view a cohort of med students that’s lower on the performance metrics like “grade in high school or undergrad” but is more diverse, because there are benefits to diversity that outweigh the cost of not picking the absolute very best performing students.

But it would be stupid to claim that the more diverse cohort of med students would have the same level of academic performance than the cohort that cared about nothing but past academic performance.

[Babale]

@Thing.Fish

It serves no particular purpose to favor applicants in the 99th percentile of academic performance over those in the 95th, because at that level there’s no significant correlation with academic or professional success.

I agree, that’s why I think the benefits of a diverse cohort of students outweighs the cost.

What I’m not going to do is gaslight people with the idea that there is no cost at all.

@puzzlegal

I’m saying that “performance” is a category that includes more than “did well on academic tests”. And yes, that the difference between scoring 700 and 800 on the current SATs isn’t very significant in “overall performance”. Of course you’ll see lower test scores in groups that offer something other than “high test scores”. (I’m combining GPA and standardized tests when i say, “test scores”.)

Then I don’t think you’d disagree with anything I said?

@puzzlegal

I’m sure the athletes, the tuba players, and the students from North Dakota also have lower test scores than the “average” student.

Correct, I said the same thing in my prior post:

@Babale

The same would have to be true regardless of the non performance factor you use in admissions - whether that’s race, gender, religion, extracurricular activities, whatever.

[Babale]

@DemonTree

What are they offering exactly that white and Asian students aren’t, and that can’t be identified without a box on a form telling you their race??

The perspective of someone who isn’t white or Asian?

I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with saying, “we value a student cohort with more diversity of background and experience over a student body with higher academic qualifications”.

I just think we should be honest and say that, not claim that there’s no drop whatsoever in academic qualifications when we consider criteria other than academic qualifications. Obviously there will be a drop, regardless of what those other criteria are. (There would be a similar drop if you only let in white men, too).

[Thing.Fish]

@Thing.Fish

A simple example: people in poor Black communities have difficulty accessing health care, in part because relatively few doctors want to serve those communities. Obviously, then, we need to train doctors who do want to serve those communities, and those are likely to be people who have roots in those communities. Therefore, it is a benefit to the public health to make it as easy as possible for qualified applicants from poor Black communities to get into medical school.

I forgot to add that the same argument could be made for applicants from impoverished white rural communities, and I would also support those applicants getting special consideration.

[Babale]

@DocCathode

According to who? I would agree that trade unions are not “woke”. But would say that socialism is.

While some socialists today might be woke, I definitely wouldn’t describe socialism as woke. Socialism tends to view social, racial, and religious issues all as manifestations of class division at best and intentional bourgeoisie distractions from class struggle at worst. Ideologies generally described as “woke” center social issues instead.

[DemonTree]

@puzzlegal

I’m saying that “performance” is a category that includes more than “did well on academic tests”.

@puzzlegal

It depends. Excellence in a sport/musical instrument/leadership/artistic expression. And yes, diversity of experience.

‘Performance’ is not a category that includes diversity of experience. That’s who you are, not what you can do.

[puzzlegal]

@Babale

What I’m not going to do is gaslight people with the idea that there is no cost at all.

I guess if you think, “admitting students whose sat scores are only 700” is a cost, then yes, of course there is a cost.

[thorny_locust]

@Babale

I am a bit confused by the claim that when the Ivy Leagues weigh things other than performance - such as race - in the admissions process, this doesn’t lower the performance level of the applicants who are admitted. That claim seems to be self evidentially true.

How they perform once they get there is likely related to factors in addition to how they performed before they got there, and the former is not going to be a perfect predictor of the latter.

I did worse academically in college than I did in high school – not because of a difference in my capacity, but because it gradually sunk in to me that nobody was making me go to class; and while I was interested in some of the material I discovered that I wasn’t all that interested in academia.

Somebody who had to struggle to get there, and/or who continued to feel they had a whole lot at stake in exactly what their grades were in college, might well have behaved differently.

[puzzlegal]

Diversity of experience certainly does affect what you can do. That’s a really weird statement.

[DemonTree]

@puzzlegal

Diversity of experience certainly does affect what you can do. That’s a really weird statement

No it’s not. Calling growing up in an inner city or Appalachia an aspect of your performance is beyond weird.

[DemonTree]

Like, if you said they overcame some kind of challenge to reach their current performance then that wouldn’t be weird. But you’re not saying that.

[Airbeck]

Are you saying that a person’s background and life experience cannot possibly affect their abilities? Because that is what I see as being beyond weird.

[thorny_locust]

@thorny_locust

How they perform once they get there is likely related to factors in addition to how they performed before they got there, and the former is not going to be a perfect predictor of the latter.

Sorry- wrong way around. Performance before they got there is not going to be a perfect predictor of performance after they get there.

[SunUp]

@Thing.Fish

I forgot to add that the same argument could be made for applicants from impoverished white rural communities, and I would also support those applicants getting special consideration.

While this is peripheral to your point, I would also note that in some (many?) cases, the motivation for prospective doctors, etc., from such communities is less “giving back” and more “getting out” if you catch my drift.

It’s not always easy to foresee who is going to be type of person who works against the market forces that drive these kinds of choices as opposed to who sees an opportunity to gain by them. And making a judgment based on e.g. an admissions essay is fraught with the prospect of “box-checking” where applicants try to appear like the former when they are really the latter. Heck, some applicants may say the former in good faith but, being at a time of their lives where their attitudes are likely be to changing a great deal anyway, may end up in the latter category.

Predictions are very difficult, especially about the future.

[DemonTree]

@Airbeck

Are you saying that a person’s background and life experience cannot possibly affect their abilities? Because that is what I see as being beyond weird.

Of course not. I’m saying they aren’t the same thing. An experience is not the same as an ability.