PC = Polite

Great Debates
1

Recently, I’ve been involved in a debate on another list about the “PC-ness” of something, with alot of complaints about how Political Correctness Has Gone To Far. I’m a little confused. I always though Politically Correct was just a different way of saying “being polite” i.e. Instead of calling women girls, chicks, or babes, you refer to them as women because that is the least offensive to the majority of them - basically a societial extention of call people what they wish to be called.

So, what is political correctness? Is it different from just having good manners? Has it indeed “Gone To Far?” Or, do we just damn “PC-ness” when we get called - or when someone is acting goofy and playing the race(sex,religion,etc.) card (see the Is this racist? thread)?

2

Note: despite evidence to the contrary, I know the difference between to and too.

3

I think there’s more to it. Certainly ‘being PC’ can be viewed as not wishing to offend. But it can also be used as a bludgeon by those who wish to be offended. At that point it’s not politeness but rather an urge to control others by the offendee.

With a little further thought, I can remember getting a sense early in my college life (85-86, I guess) that there was definitely a ‘correct’ way for students to think and feel on a college campus. If you departed from it in class or socially, you were instantly the target-for-today. It was clear to some of the teachers (and the more vocal students) that if you didn’t believe as they did there was something ‘wrong’ with you. Or you were a fool. Or you were bad. Or you were insensitive.

So once again I can see the PC thing coming about as a means of establishing control over others.

If you get my drift.

4

PC is a flawed premise.

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

5

IMHO PC isn’t necessarily about good manners. Some of it is based on lies. I get offended when I’m told to do somthing, but the justification is a lie.

E.g., we are told to call people “Asian-American” rather than “Oriental”. The reasons given are specious. One supposed reason is that it’s what they want to be called. Actually, the Asian-Americans I know prefer to be called just plain Americans. When they’re discussing their heritage, it’s a specific country, not a continent.

Another reason that was once explained to me is that oriental means east, so it’t demeaning somehow. (I never got this, so may be my explantion is flawed.)

Simlar problem with phony reasons to end the use of Indian names for sports teams. We are told that teams aren’t named after other human beings, which is untrue. E.g., Fighting Irish, Spartans. We’re told that the names demean Indians, although they show esteem. (E.g., there’s no baseball team called the Cleveland Sissies.)

A more serious aspect of PC is the ooutright lying and or censorship of news. E.g., there was a tremendous furor on the internet about two gay men who raped and killed a boy. The NY Times ignored the incident, the furor, and the guilty verdict. It just wasn’t PC to report rape and murder commited by gay men.

Similar PC spin in the Times downplayed crimes committed by Blacks during the Cincinnati riots.

Where is the “source of the Nile.” Who is empowered to decide for us what is and is not PC? HOw do they get their authority? What are their guiding principles? Any ideas?

6

originally posted by december**

**

Do you not see what you did here? Your frown on being advised to use the term ‘Asian-American’ vs. ‘Oriental’, then go on to explain that in the small circle of folks you personally know, the preference is for something else entirely. IOW, your argument is that neither choice was preferred by your sampling, therefore, the request is specious. There really shouldn’t be a problem in asking folks to attempt to be courteous to each other.

I think many people forget (or didn’t know/realize) what things were like before the whole ‘PC’ movement was started.

As a female in the office place, it was common to be called a ‘girl’, and some one would have ‘their girl’ do make coffee, call and make arrangements etc. Women who were assistants to the CEO were called “secretaries”, while a male was “an Assistant” or VP, with pay commensurate with the title.

Scylla elaborate please? are you saying that any name for a particular group should be acceptable since it’s merely a name? as in kike etc? Or am I misunderstanding your point? See, to me, if one is attempting to have a positive working relationship with other humans, one should make real attempts to not piss them off in great numbers. Of course, that’s just me.

Racially nasty jokes could be commonplace in the work environment. TNot something to which I’d like to return.

While I may agree that there are times and places where some individual persons may seem a bit too thin skinned, and assume insult where none was intended, I certainly am happier not being called a ‘girl’, and having my ass slapped as I walk by.

7

Here’s an excerpt from the Davis (Calif.) Enterprise. Note that article makes no mention of the Constitutional howler perpetrated by the member of the 100 Black Scholars. This PC treatment leaves readers with a mistaken impression of Constitutional Freedom of Speech. (It’s conceivable that the reporter may have been too ignorant to notice the error.)

*Khalilah Durias of 100 Black Scholars, which organized the protest of various student groups, said the students felt it was important to demonstrate their protest in a peaceful manner. She said Horowitz’ views are based on false information and misrepresentations of history.

"Yes, he does have a right to free speech, but I believe it also says in the Constitution that one person’s rights ends where another person’s begins," Durias said. “His free speech is very inflammatory and it ends my rights to believe that my ancestors were great people.”*

8

PC is such a loaded issue. Sure, I think there is a basis of politeness buried in there somewhere. If I feel confident that I will cause less offense (or the risk of offense is less) if I use “Asian” rather than “Oriental” - hell, I’m gonna use “Asian”. It’s just less stressful all the way around. So I find myself using some more commonly-used PC phrases and terms, because it’s simpler. And, I am mindful of certain social issues that are hotbutton, and I manage to keep my mouth shut. Just easier all around. Maybe I’m a PC-weenie sometimes for keeping my mouth shut, I don’t care. I just don’t need the stress.

But we ALL KNOW it’s gone waaaaaaaaaay farther than that. I think some of the PC crap I see around me is a version of “Thought Police”. They (whoever “they” are) “decide” that this thought, or this term is now “politically correct”. So if, God Forbid, you express the “offensive” thought or word, you are in deep doo-doo. Now, as I have already expressed, I can see that certain words and phrases are blatantly offensive, so I try to avoid them. But if I don’t see any profound offense (and I try to be reasonable, and rational about it) then screw what the PC Police think.

And, I see december’s cite on the media using a Politically Correct slant. I believe it. I believe it happens. It looks to me like it’s somehow “not OK” to report the truth when it comes to certain hot-button issues. Phooey on that.

9

Oops! It should be:

10

The difference is that Political Correctness is completely superficial. It deals entirely with supposed “labels” and completely ignores any insinuations or underlying messages that can come with those “labels”, even unoffensive ones. One can still be VERY insulting and offensive using the word “women”… you just need the proper tone, body language, etc.

PC ignores CONTEXT and only focuses on individual words. I remember back in Middle school where I almost got expelled for saying the word “nigger”. I was discussing the origins of the word with a friend. Did the administration care? Nope. I almost got my ass fried because of Political Correctness. THAT’S what is meant when people say that it’s gone too far.

11

Wring:

Being nice and considerate is always a good idea. The problem with PC language is that it defines the intent by the words alone, as if they were good or bad in and of themselves.

Calling a jewish person a kike because you know it will hurt them is simply wrong and small. But, it’s still not the word, it’s the intent.

For example, Huck Finn calls his friend “Nigger Jim,” because he thinks that’s the correct term. When he says it there’s no insult.

The problem with PC is that it automatically labels someone who doesn’t know the correct terms, or who is excluded from knowing them.

It rigidly preloads language with intent that isn’t always there, as surely as “newspeak” did in 1984.

I maintain that the language isn’t at fault, but the people speaking it often are.

PC implies that if you use one of these words you’re bad, and that if you avoid them, you’re good.

As such, the only people who use them will be total unrepentant asses, or those who by accident are caught unawares.

Those that know the rules can get away with whatever they like under the guise of proper terminology, and by attaching their vitriol to PC appropriate causes.

It solves nothing.

12

I have noticed at least one benefit of the PC movement. I have personally become more enlightened regarding the differences in others. I have also learned the real purpose behind some/much of the PC strivings – awareness of others. I now try to understand different people, and look for ways to like them, and avoid reacting to them in ways they find offensive (this is in general). I imagine that a few others have grown in the same way I have.

13

**

I think you bring up a valid point. When you have a legitimate beef with terms that are fairly disrespectful, such as girl, there’s good reason to lobby for change. Personally I don’t consider terms of respect to be in the realm of politically correct.

I have to admit I do laugh at the secretary administrative assistant. The last time I walked into an office with a secretary it was part of the school district. Now days when I hear administrative assistant I just think secretary. And that’s the whole thing I find funny about so called politically correct words. They attempt to put a new face on things by giving them a new name. One of these days administrative assistant will have the same connotations as secretary and we’ll have to think up a new word.

I just don’t think that’s what politically correct is all about. But then maybe I missed the boat.

Marc

14

There’s a big difference between deciding on word use due to concern for other people’s feelings, and coercing other people into complying with your decision.

15

Politeness and understanding may well have been the original goals of people who started promoting political correctness. However, the cases of it now that get the most attention are ones where it is used as a blatant attempt to discriminate. Take the Huck Finn controversy, for example. Even though Mark Twain was highly anti-slavery and anti-racism and these feelings are reflected in his work. Even so, the forces of political correctness want him banned from public schools, supposedly because he used the word nigger. Well, Toni Morrison and Zora Neale Hurston also used that word, but I haven’t heard any calls for their works to be banned. So clearly the single word nigger is not the real issue for people who want Twain removed from schools. In that case, what is the real issue? It seems that these people just don’t like the idea of a white author, or possibly they don’t like the idea of a white author who wrote about race issues.

16

To me, “PC” has always meant “Plain Courtesy” - I will call someone by whatever they wish to be called, and, lacking an individual frame of reference, whatever the majority of said someones, or whatever designated leaders they may have, say they wish to be called. Similarly, if I ask for the same consideration, I hope I am afforded it.

Esprix

17

I wish you to call me “My Lord and Master”. :smiley:

I find the idea of anything being Politically Correct abhorrent. PC-ness gives people a nice bandwagon to jump on against free-thinkers. PC-ness defines disagreeing with PC-ness a crime in itself. Ick.

As you can tell, I think PC is something very different from politeness.

18

Wring – Nobody I know ever asked me to call them Asian-American. If they made that request I would honor it, but why should I obey some anonymous language dictator?

I provided some evidence for my POV – less than you would have liked. You provided no evidence at all for your POV. I think one should get some support for one’s position before criticizing opposing ones.

Can you find any facts about who prefers to be called Asian-Americans, where this usage came from and why it should rule?

19

Scylla et al. Are you’re saying (summation/generalization warning): “to focus only on language and terms to the exclusion of any other behavior would allow the bigot to mask their bigotry by merely using the appropriate language, while maintaining their other more reprehensible acts” ?

Ok there are multiple levels of poor behavior, that is true. And I would be in agreement that to ban Huckleberry Finn because it used language that was common and acceptable when written, and in context is not meant as an insult, (despite the fact that it’s generally considered an insulting term now - kinda like “don we now our gay apparel” has different conotations now) would be wrong.

The way I look at it, in years B-PC, there were people who intentionally used slurs etc as part of their every day language. Some of those persons used such language out of habit, w/o intent to cause any harm or dismay. Others didn’t know that it caused harm or dismay, and yet others desired to cause harm and dismay. With the advent of awareness of PC language, the first two groups, now being aware of the harm and dismay attempt to refrain, since it isn’t their intent in the first place.

Certainly, it hasn’t completely done away with bigotry. However, perhaps it’s raised the level of consciousness of how our casually chosen words may have unintended consequences.

december how’s this ? tenth anniversary of the publication, calling themselves as a group “Asian Americans”. Or perhaps this organization founded in the 1980’s. Or were you looking for me to provide a Public Release statement saying “we now wish to be referred to as purple Americans” ? Generally, isn’t it considered to be polite behavior to address a person or group of persons as they themselves have requested? I would assume that you don’t think differently.

To attempt to say ‘well, no one specifically asked me personally to address them as this or that’ means that you should be free to call folks gooks, kikes etc is an interesting argument. I’m not sure that you really want to be saying that, eh?

Person tells me his name is William, I may in fact ask him for his preference “do you prefer William, Bill, Will?”, or wait for him to offer a suggestion. And, I certainly, upon hearing the name “William” wouldn’t automatically re-name him “Wee Willie Winkie the self avowed queen of heretics”.

So, in that one would wish to not antigonize other groups of people, if one is attempting to refer to another group, as a group, one should attempt to discover what is the most preferred label (if available) for that group. Barring the availability of a ‘recognized name’, one (again, assuming that insult is not the intentional result) should refrain from utilizing slang versions of any name (ie kike, gook etc.), and go for a more formal version. In the case of “Asian American” vs. other versions, I’d have opted for that as A. more formal, and B. less likely to have an incorrect assumption (for example, I may not be able to distinguish Korean vs. Japanese).

20

Wring – thanks for the cites. These aren’t conclusive – they may be a reaction to a PC rule imposed from some mysterious source – but I credit you for providing them.

In reponse to your parenthetical statement:

  1. I work closely with 3 people of Korean descent, Japanese descent, and Chinese descent. The first 2 are immigrants. Their background doesn’t come up often, but when it does, I’d be rude if I lumped them into a single class.

  2. The Oriental Instatue at my alma mater, U. of Chicago, has NOT changed its name. (Of course, they couldn’t use “Asian-Amercan Institute”, because they are concerned with ancient history in the Orient.)

  3. Just as you may not be able to distinguish a Korean from a Japanese (you could ASK them), one can’t tell an Asian-American from an Asian-non-American. I’m not even sure how the words are defined. E.g., I hired a young woman from Japan who is not an American citizen. Is she an “Asian-American”? I don’t know and I don’t care. What I do care about is that her work is terrific and she’s a nice person.

People from Asia were once referred to as Orientals. This word was sometimes used pejoratively. What we should have done IMHO is to stop using any word to stereotype a big, diverse group of people, rather than offer a substitute.