My experience with the small claims court

The BBQ Pit
1

I was sued by my landlord for a whole bunch of ridiculous costs totalling £1500 inc. £800 for cleaning a 3 bed house, and the rest was a long list of other claims costing about £50 each. She did not attempt any conciliation or discussion before suing me. I had not taken any photos because the LL was present at final inspection and didn’t mention a thing.

She won.

The things I learnt after the trial (slightly tongue in cheek but does accurately represent how judgments can turn against you):
[ul]
[li]You don’t have to swear an oath.[/li]
[li]As such, the true version of events means nothing, it’s more about how well you can spin a story.[/li]
[li]Evidence can be faked and nobody will check or disbelieve it.[/li]
[li]On points of contention where it’s only my word against hers, the judge sides with the Claimant on the balance of probability that it’s ‘more likely’ she’s telling the truth than lying.[/li]
[li]Good ‘sportsmanship’ during the entire filing and proceedings counts for nothing. Even when you file a notice for a stay of trial because the Claimant has not sent you their evidence even though you have to them, the judge will not care, therefore, try and gain as much of an upperhand as you can before the trial even starts.[/li]
[li]The LL can use photos from 2 years before I was a tenant as a ‘before’ picture. This is enough to convince a judge that the property must have been the same state in 2008 when I rented the property, as it was in 2006 when the photo was taken. Any attempts to undermine the accuracy of the evidence will be dismissed because it is ‘more likely’ the LL is telling the truth.[/li]
[li]Even if the Defendant has receipts to prove the house had been professionally cleaned, and research to show that the market rate is nowhere near £800, the judge will still feel the LL needs to be compensated for her ‘deep clean’ and award cleaning costs to the Claimant.[/li]
[li]A LL can purchase new furniture/paint etc. and then claim it on the tenant. If a LL purchases things in small enough value amounts, but added together are still worth several hundred pounds, this will convince a judge that they deserve all those claim points, because they are small and ‘reasonable’.[/li]
[li]It doesn’t matter if the LL was at the final inspection and said everything was fine, or if no check-out inventory was taken, the LL can still screw you over on the balance of probability that it’s more likely the LL had to expend those small, reasonable costs, than my eye-witness account that the LL had OK’d the property on the final inspection.[/li]
[li]It doesn’t matter if the LL took over 21 days (57 days in fact) to serve a claim on the tenant, the LL can get the letting agent to back-date a fake letter and claim they had sent it but that it wasn’t their fault the Defendant had never received it - even when the Claimant cannot provide proof of postage.[/li]
[li]Ultimately, even though the real onus is on the Claimant to prove the guilt of a Defendant, it turns out that the Defendant is guilty until proven innocent because by nature of being the Claimant, the balance of probability is that the Claimant is telling the truth. The Defendant must actually work harder to tip the scales back in their favour.[/li][/ul]

It’s really scary how much power the judges have to interpret a situation. And also the fact that you cannot appeal even if as the judge gives their final judgment, they miscalculate the final costs I have to pay. It still stands because what they say is final and mathematical errors by the judge aren’t considered ‘serious’ grounds for appeal.

2

Sorry you ran into all this trouble and expense. It illustrates the need for photo documentation and getting the landlord to sign off on any needed cleanup/repairs at the time of checking out.

3

Document EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING.

When you move into a new joint, go through it with a fine tooth comb (and I mean this literally) and note every mark, every scuff, every splodge, every grease spot on the stove, every scum mark in the shower, every damned thing. Make sure you note whether the taps turn on and off properly, whether the door jams when you close it, whether there’s a kink in the carpet or a hole in the fly-wire (no matter how small). Make sure you WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN, and submit it to the landlord or agent for verification within a week of taking tenancy…and get them to sign it too.

And also record EVERY time you contact them for maintenance purposes…how quickly they respond, and what sort of condition the workers left the place in after said repairs were done.

I learned all this after an unfortunate incident with an anally-retentive, obsessive-compulsive bitch of an agent once. :smiley:

However, I’ve also had the opposite experience with the ‘small claims court’. One agent wanted to hit me with ‘damages’ that I’d already reported to their office after a particularly violent weather experience. They also claimed other damages.

They wanted to withhold my ‘bond’ because we had to chop back a vine to repair a fence (at our expense). We left the (copious) herbage in the backyard after we left. The Magistrate laughed at the agent, and also withdrew the other claims (which we’d already admitted to…bubbling paint on windowsill, cracked bathroom window etc) because the agent was too stupid to realise we’d saved them mega bucks by fixing the fence anyway.

I walked away from that hearing feeling pretty ok that the legal system works most of the time :cool:

4

Oh yeah, learned this one a long time ago but fortunately at a lot less expense.

Nowadays with cameras on phones and cheap digital cameras, it’s a lot easier to just walk around and take pictures of everything.

Do this both when you move in (documenting anything still not clean) and when you move out.

Not just general room shots either. Show floors of closets, lower window sills, inside the fridge, the fridge seal, the base of the toilet, the floor and walls of the shower. If you know anything is dirty that you were unable to clean properly, take pictures of it too. It doesn’t really cost you anything more to take 30-50 pictures of every tiny little thing and keep them on your computer.

5

So, how trashed did you leave the house when you moved out?

6

I went to court with a landlord and won. However, the shoe was on the other foot and I sued them.

I had moved from a fourplex apartment into a rental house. The day after the move, I went back to the apartment and cleaned it out with a girlfriend, and that clean-out included scrubbing out the fridge and oven. After we finished, and as I locked the door behind me, I turned to my friend and told her I felt pretty stupid locking up an empty apartment.

Fast forward a week and I’ve made an appointment with the landlady to do a final walk through and hand over the keys. She unlocks the apartment door and we walk in. Her first words were, “Where’s the fridge?” And I answered with “Where’s the stove?” In the week that I hadn’t been living there, someone keyed themselves in and helped themselves to the only two things in the damn place. She couldn’t give me the deposit back and said she had to speak with the building owner first.

A week later, I get a letter from the management company. Not only were they keeping my deposit, but they were also charging me another $800 on top of that to replace the stove and fridge. I checked my lease and noted that, indeed, responsibility for the appliances in the apartment was not on me. I called my insurance company and asked about filing a claim. The insurance company said they covered the contents of the apartment that belonged to ME, and that the building owner’s property insurance should cover the stove and fridge; that there was no need for them to recoup the costs from me, especially because my lease did not specifically spell out that I was responsible for the appliances. I refused to pay, so they sent me to collections.

At the time, I had legal insurance, so I called up a lawyer and laid out my documentation. I had an affadavit from my new landlady that I hadn’t moved a new stove and refrigerator into the new place. I had a statement from my friend who cleaned with me and watched me lock up the apartment. I had a police report (we called) saying, “Yep. The appliances were stolen.” I had my lease that did not place responsibility for appliances on me. I also knew, if that had happened while I was still living there, they would not have charged me. So my lawyer filed suit in county court, for libel (ding on my published credit report), slander, unfair business practices, breach of contract, and general assholery.

It turned out that one of the partners in my attorney’s firm was golfing buddies (or something) with the building owner. I believe they had a nice game of golf, a few cocktails, and agreed to settle. I got my deposit back, plus they had to give me the amount they were going to charge me. I got a court order for them to restore my credit to all three reporting agencies. And my lawyer got paid, twice. (Once by the other team and again by the legal insurance company.)

The moral of the story is: even if you don’t need a lawyer for small claims, county, state, or federal court, it behooves one to find one anyway.

7

It was not trashed at all, I’m a professional and I was living with another middle-aged professional. We are not stereotypical students who throw parties every month. The rules state that a property must only be left in the same condition in which it was let. That does not equal super-squeaky anti-septic clean. They cited an oven with some grime, and the shower which had a bit limescale that could not be removed (it was ingrained into the shower tray as the bottom was grainy for foot grip). When I moved in, it was already a little grimey, but I was fine with it. The LL had no photos to prove the state of the shower/oven was squeaky clean before my tenancy. As the Claimant, the onus was on her to prove that it was my fault the oven was not at the same standard as when she left it. Apparently, these 2 pieces of evidence are enough to still charge a tenant 3 times the market rate for cleaning. The LL argued that she had to call in cleaning ‘specialists’ to make them squeaky clean, and that’s why it cost so much. It’s unbelieveable that a judge can be persuaded by that crap, when they should know the rule is that it doesn’t have to be squeaky pristine clean.

Before this landlord, I’ve had 4 landlords before that, all of which caused no problems and I received my full deposit back for all of them.

Kambuckta, I’m glad you had a better experience! I went into the trial thinking I had enough evidence to cover me, despite not knowing the Claimant’s arguments. I was thinking surely the judge will see common sense. Not so. It’s like the moment I walked in, the burden of proof was on me when it shouldn’t have been the case. We had actually installed new carpet on the same day of the final inspection, yet the LL didn’t consider that as a favour :confused:

8

Losing a judgement is still a very, very long way from having to pay her.

You can avoid paying her for an enormously long time and if you feel she cheated and does not deserve the money, you should research ways and means to avoid paying.

As I understand it, if you don’t want to pay and you have a little bit of knowledge, you can make it almost impossible for her to collect any money.

9

Currently pursuing something similar with a former landlord. Pro: they have a burden of proof for damage and they don’t have it. Con: their word is good enough that they sent the 60-day letter and they’re lying their ass off (but I think I can prove they didn’t send it in time but that’s up to the judge as to if it beats out their “word”)

10

My daughter and son-in-law took pictures of everything in their apartment upon moving in, and after a thorough cleaning when they moved out. They had to sue for their deposit and easily won as the landlord had no documentation of any kind. They heard that the landlord routinely held back deposits, betting that few tenants would take the time and effort to pursue their return.

11

In some jurisdictions, that advice wouldn’t be of any help, at least not for the hearing itself.

Here in California, you’re not allowed to have a lawyer represent you in small claims court. Cite

12

Saw a lot of that crap in college. When a group of us moved into a house together, I took photos of everything, got a 2 for 1 print deal a Longs, and gave her a set along with our write up (and as has been said, show no mercy on this. Tag everything, no matter how small. It is in your interests to be a bastard at this point). We move out a year later, and it begins.

“I’m charging you for all these staples in the wall.”

flip-flip “Those were here when we moved in. It’s photo #17 in your records.”

“This window is cracked.”

flip-flip “Photo #32. It was like that when we moved in.”

“Well, there’s blue paint on the rug.”

“You painted this room blue after we’d moved in. Here are the photos showing it to be white, and a copy of a letter we sent to you about the mess the painters made.”

It went well for us. :slight_smile:

13

FWIW, in some jurisdictions (such as Quebec) you can’t have a lawyer for small claims court. (Nothing stops you from consulting a lawyer before you go to court, I suppose.)

14

First rental place I ever signed a lease when moving into, the security deposit was $100, and I was making minimum at a part time job. When I moved out, I was full time at a far better job, for considerably more, and probably making in a day what all my roommates, combined, made in a week. $100 was major money when I moved in, and mere pocket change (literally, that’s how much I kept in cash, in my pants pocket, every damn day) when I moved out. Landlord kept the deposit, with ridiculously weak justification. I didn’t care. It was pocket change. It was before digital cameras existed. Most landlords are old farts who haven’t adapted to the ‘easy pictures’ digital gives. Most judges are probably from the same demographic. And they were rewarded in the early 80s by people like me, who didn’t think the ‘pocket change’ was worth going after.

15

The last rental property I lived in, I found out after I had moved in that the owner had serious issues, as every tenant had been kicked out after 6 months. I lasted 7 weeks.

The owner wanted to move back in, apparently. The final inspection with the agent went OK, but later feedback had complaints from the owner about the state of the carpets, and how she would have to employ a “professional” cleaner.

I wondered how I would contest this disconnect to reality, until the next weekend, when I drove back to the house to pick up the home-delivered newspaper (I hadn’t got around to changing the delivery address). The carpet that she was trying to get me to pay to be cleaned had all been taken up, and stacked on the kerb for council to pick up.

How the agent and I laughed - I think she was jack with the owner as well.

16

[quote=“BerryBlast, post:1, topic:635157”]

The things I learnt after the trial (slightly tongue in cheek but does accurately represent how judgments can turn against you):
[ul]
[li]You don’t have to swear an oath.[/li]
[li]As such, the true version of events means nothing, it’s more about how well you can spin a story.[/li][/QUOTE]

You say this as though the whole idea of swearing in court has any effect whatsoever. Lying scum will always be lying scum. It doesn’t matter what the situation is, they will lie and they will be scum.

As others pointed out, when it comes to rental properties, what matters is your documentation. I learned the hard way (ended up paying twice for something becauseI foolishly lost a receipt and that something was to the tune of $300 back in the early 1980s) that said documentation must include as a minimum:

[list][li]The moving-in walkthrough of the rental property with the property owner and/or their agent, taking photographic evidence of both any existing problems and rooms and appliances in good condition. Ensure both you and the other person doing the walkthrough sign the document.[/li][li]A detailed lease. Sadly, the longer the lease, the better, in my experience.[/li][li]Each and every piece of paper received during the life of the lease from the property owner and/or their agent.[/li][li]The moving-out walkthrough of the rental property with the property owner and/or their agent. Again, take photographs of each space and each appliance. Ensure both you and the other person doing the walkthrough sign the document.[/li][/ul]

A judge, magistrate, or whatever the person in your jurisdiction who handles small claims is called is going to go by what they consider to be the most likely scenario of events to be true absent any documentation proving another scenario to be the actual case. That person will go by their experience over the years, experience as judge (or whatever they’re called), as renters, and as rental property owners. That whole thing about oaths is, as always, pure malarkey. You need documentation.