I’ve danced around this fire before, most recently with a huffy white man who insisted that nobody was hyphenated, not even a gent whose dad was a genuine Kenyan.
This hyphenation thing is harmless, IMO. It has no legal status, and it’s rarely accompanied by documentation. If a lady wants to claim she’s part Lakota, it doesn’t bother me at all. Ronald Reagan took a trip to his “ancestral” Irish village. He hoisted a pint, and he left the villagers mildly confused.
It seems interesting to me that a black man in 2008 is telling other black people “No, you’re not part Cherockee, you’re black.” Not that long ago, white people were applying the one-drop rule to decide whether a person was fully human, or a savage with no rights. They said, “No, you’re not part white, you’re a Negro. You can’t eat here.”
It can be the same way for those of us whose roots simply are exclusively from Europe. I feel no connection to Bavaria. (I think they wear silly pants and like beer, right?)
But maybe it’s one of those things where you can’t always feel the presence, but you can always feel the absence?
There’s a lot of people who romanticize a part of their ancestors’ culture that they are not in touch with at all. I’m mostly of Scandinavian heritage* and have direct ties to part of it, and it does annoy me sometimes to hear the “Oh, I’m 1/16 [insert specific Scandinavian ethnicity here]” and then they know nothing about the culture that they lay claim to. :rolleyes: I really don’t care, and it’s not a point of mutual interest if I’m the only one who has some sort of understanding of that culture. I don’t care if your great-great-grandmother Jane married Sven the Weirdo when your family was still living in Michigan or if you lay claim to being a descendant of Leif Eriksson. (It seems like every third weirdo with some distant Norse heritage wants to tell me something like this, and, let’s face it: there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are related to Leif Eriksson out there; none of them are special because of it.) If one is that interested in their ancestral heritage, then maybe one should at least learn something about the cultures that one is descended from.
[sub]*1/2 Icelandic, 1/4 Finnish, 1/4 “Russian” Jew. I only have strong cultural ties to the first segment.[/sub]
I can’t find a citation, but as I recall, Chile sent a pregnant woman to Antarctica to have her baby, in order to strengthen their territorial claims to the Antarctic by having a Chilean citizen born in the Antarctic part of Chile. If you could track down that kid’s family, you’d get Antarctica and South America as a bonus.
The average black American has a bit less than 20 % non African ancestry.
There isn’t anything wrong with black identified people acknowledging their other ancestry, and you have no freaking idea whether or not an individual has Native or other ancestry.
Call yourself what you want, and let other people call themselves what they want.
While I am equally as perplexed that Europeans take so much offense at Americans proudly claiming their heritage. If someone had an American parent or grandparent or whatever, and proudly told me “I’m like you, I’m American, I’m part American” I would be honored. There was another recent thread asking for non-US Dopers opinions on American traits, which inevitably turned into yet another 3-page-long rant from the EuroDopers on Hyphenated-Americans. Can y’all not find some honor in people half a world away proudly acknowledging their cultural and blood connection to you? Can you not be flattered even a little bit that these people still think so much of their long past ancestors that they wish to claim you as a distant cousin?
Would it help to tell you that I’m a blue-eyed girl with, yes, fully documented African ancestors and that I’m just as proud of them as I am of my white and Melungeon ancestors? They were my ancestors, if they had not lived and struggled and loved then I would not be here today. They did passeblanc and assimilated into white society – and whites, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask any black person over the age of about 50 or so – and had white children and white grandchildren who kept quiet about their mixed blood because it was Civil War-era Mississippi. I don’t judge them for their choices. They did what they thought was best, to give themselves and their descendants the best life available to them in that day and age. And yes, some (not all, but some) of those “Cherokee princesses” whites are so proud of were really black or Mestee or black/Indian mixed ancestors. Being mixed race wasn’t merely an intellectual thing in the old Deep South – it could be a matter of life and death. A lot of people passed for white if they could. That could save them from molestation, torture, and murder, could send their children to schools, allow them to get good jobs. And yes, sadly, blacks and black culture suffered under this bigotry. I don’t know how to make this right. I don’t suppose it’s up to me, anyway. Everyone will just have to learn on their own how to be at peace with what they are, and who they are.
I’m jumpin’ on Skald’s bandwagon b’cause if he’s in charge of the conquest, I’m thinkin’ his bandwagon will be a pretty safe place to be. Count me American. Period.
Well, okay, maybe Democrat-American, but that’s it. Really. I’m serious.
I am Latin American, and as you know, Latin Americans have native blood. It is not fantasy, given the fact Natives are our neighbours, friends, coworkers, girlfriends, teachers and even relatives!
So, we know how natives look.
Now, seen the White American population at random, it is OBVIOUS, many have Native blood in them. And if it is not Indian, perhaps it is Mongol blood through Germans or Russians, but the Asiatic faces are there.
So, who are you trying to fool with the so called Cherokee-Princess myth? Of course, the more obvious ancestor wasn’t a princess, like Pocahontas. More likely was traded by a suggar or tobacco bag! But who cares, the origin is there.
Blacks had less chance to mix with Amerindians than Whites simply because they weren’t free. It was the frontiermen, particularly the skin traders, who mixed the most. So, when I would expect that when Blacks have Amerindian blood usually they also have European blood at the same time.
It is common simply because it is the collective memory of the past. A past rewritten by historians that tried to forget the Amerindians in the U.S. to make the country a “happy copy of Germany” :rolleyes:
Hmm, if I remember correctly, the dark skinned *injun *Ralph and the pale skinned German Eileen union irked my great grandfather (Eileen’s dad) a little.
As it happens, my husband has genuine Cherokee ancestry - we have photographs, names, and other solid documentation, as well relatives in the Eastern Band (Those are the ones that escaped the Trail of Tears). For most of American history being Indian meant, to the surrounding whites, being a dirty savage, your land stolen (sometimes the children, too) and no matter what you did not being quite good enough. It wasn’t until they were nearly gone, or “safely” tucked away on reservations, that the whites began idolizing the “noble savage”.
So, while I have no problem with people acknowledging the various parts of their biological background I do get annoyed with people who proclaim Native American ancestry as if it were some badge of honor or something. And these people almost always claim a “princess” in the family. (For the record, my husband doesn’t - his Cherokee relatives were all just plain old ordinary tribespeople) For most of US history it was seen as shameful by a lot of people, and those folks’ great-grandparents would no doubt be appalled that they’re discussing a family secret in public.
When I see black folks doing it I’m always a trifle puzzled - you’re denying being of one oppressed minority by claiming another? While Natives weren’t treated the same as blacks, they certainly weren’t treated well or accepted. Read some stuff from the 19th Century and you’ll realize that there was a group of white people back then who regarded the Natives as human vermin to be eliminated like rats or lice (to be fair, there were always some whites who felt differently). With white people… Are you proclaiming your membership in that group to show how unenlightened and unbigoted you are? (In which case I’m just waiting for white folks to start claiming a distant “African princess” ancestor).
Of course, there are white people and black people with Native American ancestry. With some tribes, you can legitimately claim membership if you marry into the group (but not always - there is considerable variation between tribes) Some tribes, like the Seminole, really did (and still do) have members of mostly African descent. And despite the “Noble Savage” myths, Native Americans are people - some are bigots, some aren’t, some welcome other people into their circle and some don’t.
We had a local contractor who was trying to claim minority-owned business status. The procurement officer, a black woman, came down to my office to talk to me about it, and told me that the guy was claiming to be 1/16 Ponka Indian.
“Have you ever heard of the Ponca tribe?”
“Nope. Maybe he meant to say ‘Honky tribe’”.
Silence. I looked up to see the most wonderful expression come over her face, just before she completely fell apart laughing.
Same here! Brother Buffalo appeared to me in a spirit dream and told me there was a stranger in our midst, searching for any thread w/ the word ‘race’ in it, in order to sow difficulty and strife so the stranger would be entertained. Luckily, Brother Buffalo revealed to me that stranger’s crops will henceforth wither in their field and their genitals dry to a crispy husk for the offense.
Or maybe it was the peyote w/ a Harvey Wallbanger chaser talking.
Would it help to tell you that I’m a blue-eyed girl with, yes, fully documented African ancestors and that I’m just as proud of them as I am of my white and Melungeon ancestors? They were my ancestors, if they had not lived and struggled and loved then I would not be here today. They did passeblanc and assimilated into white society – and whites, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask any black person over the age of about 50 or so – and had white children and white grandchildren who kept quiet about their mixed blood because it was Civil War-era Mississippi. I don’t judge them for their choices. They did what they thought was best, to give themselves and their descendants the best life available to them in that day and age. And yes, some (not all, but some) of those “Cherokee princesses” whites are so proud of were really black or Mestee or black/Indian mixed ancestors. Being mixed race wasn’t merely an intellectual thing in the old Deep South – it could be a matter of life and death. A lot of people passed for white if they could. That could save them from molestation, torture, and murder, could send their children to schools, allow them to get good jobs. And yes, sadly, blacks and black culture suffered under this bigotry. I don’t know how to make this right. I don’t suppose it’s up to me, anyway. Everyone will just have to learn on their own how to be at peace with what they are, and who they are.
The Sioux grandmother in question was from Canada, though.