White ppl w/ black ancestors

Something I noticed recently got me to thinking.

It seems like there are quite a few white people that are distantly related to Native Americans. And it’s not hard to find white people who will claim this heritage, either. I’ve met many white folks who will tell you that their great-great-great grandmother was Creek or whatever. This isn’t a rare occurence. (The same goes for black folks, too.)

But I don’t see a lot of white people claiming black ancestory. In fact, I don’t think I’ve met one at all. Why is that? I’ve composed three possible reasons:

  1. Whites and blacks didn’t “get busy” as much as whites and Native Americans did back in the day; therefore, there are less descendants from these unions.

  2. Until very recently, the children of whites and blacks were automatically labeled black. By virtue of being labeled black meant these children were more likely to marry black people, not whites, thereby keeping the “black blood” contained within the minority and unmixed with the majority.

  3. Many white people do have black ancestory but don’t know it because their ancestors were “passing” and did not reveal their roots out of fear of facing reprecusions. So they live under the impression that they are 100% white, when in reality great-grand father Harry was a mixed guy.

  4. There are a lot of white ppl out there who claim black ancestors, but I just haven’t met them.

  5. Many white people are aware of black ancestors, but they keep mum about it.

What do yall think of these possibilities?

They tried to “out” President Warren G. Harding during the 1920 election.

If you browse any African-American bookstores you’re likely to come across that pamphlet “Six Presidents of the United States Who Were Black.” I forget all the names of the presidents the pamphlet’s author claimed had black ancestry (this could be a GQ question). But on the cover was a picture of Warren G. Harding.

Noteworthy is the fact that Harding himself never denied the allegation. He was quoted as saying, “Who knows? One of my ancestors might have jumped the fence somewhere.”

After the racist Woodrow Wilson administration, the most racist U.S. president in history, Harding began to restore the civil rights for African-Americans that Wilson had nullified. Yes, as late as the Wilson and Harding administrations, the Republicans were still better on civil rights than the Democrats. A hangover from the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Ishmael Reed worked this theme of Harding being Black into his wonderfully weird novel Mumbo Jumbo.

What do you think the average reaction to a white person saying they have black ancestors is?

In my husband’s case, his grandfather’s father was black. His mother had an affair with a black man. My husband’s grandfather denied this and being white enough looking to pass, but his wife told my husband she believed it was true. This could easily have been hidden from my husband, and certainly isn’t listed in any official genealogy. The only way it affected my husband’s life is he was teased about his nose. The only way this affects me is that when asked hypothetically, “Would you marry someone you know has black ancestry?” I can say yes and back up my words. I’m aware enough to realize that blacks still face much discrimination and that the experience of one who looks black and one who may have just as many black ancestors, but looks white is often far different.

Revealing this fact usually triggers some halfwit to remark something about how since we are black we can’t be accused of racism. I badly want to punch such fine thinkers in the mouth. I’m not black, my husband is arguably not black or at least doesn’t share in the cultural heritage of blacks. Even if we were black, we could still be racists. I have met plenty of racist black people. I knew one black woman who thought she was a better person than darker black people by virtue of her light color.

In America virtually every black person has some white blood, with the exception of true Africans (due to immigration policies almost all are 1st or 2nd generation today) or Black-Caribbean Americans (same immigrant issues).

They got “busy”, pretty much from day 1 of the black experience in N. America …

I’m not going to try to BS you that I understand how Native Americans and whites went at it, but my WAG is that because IN GENERAL terms Indian women could choose someone of their culture and heritage or a white ‘enemy’ they would tend to choose a homeboy… Meaning there are more Naive Americans today w/o a drop of white blood than there are descendants of black people here from1610ish through 1860 -again thats a guess

Interestingly, in the old days many African-Americans who wanted to “pass” but were not quite light enough to be convincing WASPS claimed to be part Spanish or part Native American. I don’t doubt that many white people who think they have Native American ancestry actually do not, or at least not as much as they think they do (many African-Americans do honestly have some Native American ancestry).

I think those two just about cover it.

Jomo Mojo, I hate to derail a nice little Great Debate into a General Question, but I’m intrigued by this - first time I’ve every heard anyone say anything positive about the Harding administration!

I’m aware of Wilson’s support for Birth of a Nation, but don’t know anything about Harding’s civil rights record. Could you elaborate a bit and fight my ignorance?

Thanks.

Eh, many black-caribbean Americans also have white blood. I don’t know in the Lesser Antilles, but at least in the (Greater¿?) Antilles (Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico) there was/is a lot of mixture.

Actually, I doubt that #5 is very prevalent and I would push up #2

as the reason.

Each example of #3 eliminates a possible occasion for #5.

On the other hand, with the “one drop” laws that were passed in several Southern states, it seems quite likely that a large number of people–segregated from white society by law–would simply have accepted that they were part of the black community, regardless of their actual ancestry.

Ever hear of Dr. Robert Stuckert? From time to time you may see a cite which claims he did a study in the 1950’s, establishing that 21% or so of "white"Americans had a “black”(sub-Saharan African) ancestor.

Since this was pre-DNA, I believe he used statistical methods rather than any ‘genetic’ testing. I have no idea how reliable his numers are - and “white” in itself is a very broad category (I assume a 10th generation Anglo southerner would have a much different chance of having a recent black ancestor than a Polish-American in Michigan).

http://college4.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2001/12/17/891420.xml

Plus PBS did a show on this topic for “Frontline”.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/

Lamia, I’m wondering why you doubt that many white American have native American ancesters. Do you doubt that many Native Americans “passed” as white and intermarried with whites?

Let me preface by saying I am one of those whites who can trace their blood back to Native Americans. And I don’t have to go that far-my dad. Despite my pale white skin, I have the last name to prove it.

I have an answer to the original post. The reason you wil find a lot of whites claiming Native American ancestery but not black ancestery is the approach white Americans have officially and unofficially taken with each race over roughly the period 1860-1970.

Both groups, Native Americans and African Americans, were viewed as inferior by white Europeans/Americans for much of this country’s history, with pockets of that belief lingering today. There was a difference in the beliefs directed towards each group, however.

Whites had very peacefully intermingled with Native Americans. This peaceful intermingling was at times genuine (French Fur traders and Native Americans in the modern Midwest and Canada), and at times self serving (eastern settlements partially dependent on peace with and help from tribes in order to survive). Despite the general belief that Native Americans were “savages”, there was also a respect at some level for them because of willingness to defend themselves and there ability to not tame nature, but to thrive in spite of it. Also, to mainland Europe, their was a mystique and romance to this “exotic” peoples. It didn’t hurt that written reports back to Europe during early settlement of the hemisphere tended to be erotic because of there stories of naked men warriors and beautiful women. By the time the Civil War ended, despite the fact that physical extermination of “troublesome” Native Americans was still an American goal, there was also a fictional romance to the Native American.

As Extermination became less and less a viable option to America, assimiliation became the preferred method of eliminating the Native culture. It was accepted at high levels of government and academia that Native Americans were capable of being “equal” to whites if they were just folded into the anglo gene pool. I could go into all the aspects of assimilation, but it would take to long for this post. Needless to say, anglo America was prepared to accept the “white” Indian. While the policy of assimilation was all but given up on by the mid '70’s, the acceptance of the “white Indian” and the fictional romance of all Native Americans lingered. Hence, whites are very willing to tell others they are decended from a Native American (in an interesting aside, whites are more likely to claim to be descended from a female Native American, and not a male. Another story, another time.)

Meanwhile, the black was subjegated to whites prior to 1865. The whites had a feeling of superiority over the black that exceeded that of their feelings towards the Indian, because while they decimated the Indians, they never fully controlled them, owned them. The fact that whites had so much power over the black populace led them to believe that the black was actually a lower life form, an animal. They gave the Indian credit for having some humanity because they did not have total control over them. After emancipation, segregation becomes policy. Keep them apart from the whites. Let white children be taught all of the horrible stereotypes, without ever having to get to know a black man or woman, so there minds aren’t opened up to the fact that all of those stereotypes aren’t true. Therefore, a white would gladly cover up black ancestory because a)it was embarrassing because of the societal stigma of the times, and b) Usually the the union of the person’s mother and father (usually black mother and white father) was eligitament, even rape.

Also, a lot times it is difficult for a child of mixed ancestery to pass as white, for obvious reasons. Therefore, these children often remained in the Native American or Black community, unless a white male married a Native Woman, which was fairly acceptable. As a result, the white genetics would often get “washed out” by marriages and children in the black, segregated community. The result is what we see as a black person with white blood. In the Native American community, Native women could marry a white man, bringing the mixed blood child into the white community, allowing for further marriages, children with whites, leading to “whites with native blood”. In addition, assimilation encouraged Native Americans to leave the reservation for the white community. Such is my case, where a Native American man leaves the reservation, marries a white woman, has a mixed child with her. That mixed child then has a white child (me) with a white woman.

I have studied this and written papers on it. I do not have citations in what I wrote, because I would need to dig up all of my college research. I will cite if asked, just give me time. Sorry for the length,but it is not a two sentence story to tell. I made things very general because of space constraints, so if anyone wants to hit me for generaliztion, I’ll gladly go specific. It’ll just take you three days to read what I write (as opposed to the four hours to read this).

Interesting post, Jibby

Sorry to jump into the thread, but to hit the numbered points of the OP, as well:

  1. I don’t know if any studies have been done on how prevelant whites and blacks and whites and native americans having children was. From my own research, both happend at about the same rate. The white-native american occurence was more mainstream, even though mixed bloods, as they were referred as, by no means had it easy. While legitimate white-black unions occured, their was a lot of rape as well. Rape also occured in the white-native relationship, but not as often. And I am using rape in terms we understand it today. Rape was not understood the same way back then.

  2. The mixed child was more likely to remain in the black community and mate with others in that community, yes. The mixed native american was more likely to enter white society and mate with whites than the mixed black child.

  3. Yes, many whites may have black ancesters and not know it, because it was covered up. That is more likely the case of a white woman having a black child, I speculate, though. The child of a black woman usually ended up in the black community. Interestingly, some with Native American blood may unkowingly have black blood as well, though. There are loosely documented cases of run away slaves ending up with Indian Tribes.

  4. Possibly, but not likely. If so, the intermixing of races is probably more recent or the black descendant is well known.

  5. Very likely. Goes back to covering up the ancestery.

Sorry, I misremembered the title of the book that claimed six Black presidents. It was actually: *
The Six Black Presidents: Black Blood, White Masks* by Auset BaKhufu.

Here is an excerpt from the book about President Harding’s ancestry controversy:
http://www.cyberspace.org/~jh/wgh/bakhufu.html

Here is a page that examines the Black Harding controversy in depth:
http://www.cyberspace.org/~jh/wgh/

Northern Piper, I read about Wilson’s racism and Harding’s partial undoing of it in the revisionist history book Lies My Teacher Told Me. Harding issued Executive Order #3833 to reinstate Henry T. Ellington (a Black man) as railroad postal official after he had been removed on trumped-up charges by the Wilson administration which tried to make the Post Office Department all white.
http://www.napfe.com/mg0899uc.htm

This page details many of Wilson’s sins.
http://159.191.39.100/curry/Wilsonall.html
It quotes from the revisionist history book Land of Promise:

While searching I came across web sites that claim President Harding was inducted into the Ku Klux Klan in a secret White House ceremony. I don’t know if there’s any way to verify that or if it was another smear campaign against Harding. The guy was such an incompetent nobody anyway, his name has been mud ever since the Teapot Dome Scandal came out, maybe he seemed like a convenient target for everybody to pile on. I have spent a lot of time looking without finding any cites that Harding significantly reversed Wilson’s segregation of the federal government.

Chalk me up as an example of #4 and an anti-example of #5 here.

I’ve mentioned a few times on the boards that I have both Native American and African blood in me (1/16th each). No biggie. I don’t try to claim it (though one of my uncles wants me to front a business for him so he can benefit from Native American set asides. Yuck.) I’ve never been particularly involved with my ancestry. The closest I come to being reminded of it is the family story that our last name is derived from a somewhat disparaging term for African hair type. So it’s not like it’s a big part of my life. Therefore, why should I care?

Let’s face it…I’m as white as white can be. A Jew from Chicago with both African and Native American blood now living in rural Appalachia? There’s no means by which to cope with that (though I was tempted to check off almost EVERYTHING when I got long-formed on the recent census). I self-identify white…that’s what seems to matter.

Jomo Mojo - interesting - thanks! I’ve been meaning to look at Lies - that’s one more reason.

That is not what I said. I said that many white Americans who believe that they have Native American ancestry probably have African-American ancestry. You thought great-grandma was part Blackfoot? Well, she may have been, but she may have been part black instead or as well.

Actually, I do doubt that many Native Americans chose to “pass” as white. As Jibby7’s post indicates, the white community to some extent encouraged Native Americans to become assimilated into the “civilized world”. Intermarriage between whites and Native Americans was never as frowned upon as intermarriage between whites and African-Americans. Being Native American was never the same kind of liability in the white community that being African-American was. People of mixed white/Native American ancestry have long felt free to openly describe themselves as whites who are “part Indian”; until recently this would have been impossible for someone of mixed white/African-American ancestry.

At the same time, it was (and remains) unusual for people within a Native American community to view whites as their superiors or being white as something that is desireable. I am sure that some Native Americans must have “passed”, but these cultural factors would make it relatively less common than an African-American “passing”.

Me too. My great great grandfather was black and there’s no reason to hide that. It comes up rarely, though, since I look more Irish and Scottish than anything else in my genetic makeup.

Intrestingly enough, though, it wascovered up that this man was black until my mom and aunt found his birth certificate several years ago. My great grandparents claimed he was “black Portuguese” (I guess this means that some Portuguese are darker skinned? I suspect that they’re in denial about being bi-racial, but whatever) and never admitted that he was in fact African. I don’t know why it mattered to them, except that they were pretty racist- you know the type, the ones who worry that “THEY are taking over the neighborhood.”

**

I agree. I have Irish-Scottish blood in me, but unless someone asks if to list my “ingredients”, I’m pretty much quiet about this. Not out of shame, but because it doesn’t really matter that much to me. I don’t look Irish or Scottish and I wasn’t raised in either of those cultures. So saying I’m 1/16 white–while technically true–is sorta silly to me.

But I suppose in the past, such fractionation wasn’t silly. The “one drop rule” was enough to sentence people as white-looking as Bob Barr to wretched lives as slaves. So for the longest time, it DID matter whether or not you had black blood, regardless of whether or not you personally cared one way or the other.

It’s interesting to me that the “one drop rule” doesn’t apply to Native American-white mixtures.