In Sociology class the prof said there was significant mixing of black and white in Europe during the time of the Roman Empire and after. Quite a few slaves and Roman Legionnaires were black. After the fall of the Empire thousands of black Legionnaires were assimilated throughout Europe.
Could this be the reason many Italians have dark, curly hair and ‘olive’ complexions?
Lamia, it was a little unclear what you were trying to get at in your first post. I’m sure it’s true that many people with African ancestry claimed to be Native American.
I’m finding this discussion very interesting, especially with Jibby7’s contribution. I’m one of these white people with a mystery Cherokee great-great-grandmother. My attitude is that we’re all a big mixture of “races” and most of us don’t know exactly who our ancestors were, so it’s silly to make a big deal out of it. But people constantly ask me “what I am” because of my apparently exotic looks. The thing is, everyone else in my family looks like an average Northern European person. I figure I must look like some long-lost ancestor. (No, there was no milkman!) I’m amazed at how upset people get when I tell them the truth - they think I’m playing games with them. Why are people so concerned with this issue? And why do total strangers feel it’s any of their business?
Because people like to peg others into categories before they actually have dealings with them. Ambiguous racial appearance irritates the hell out of some folk, I’ve decided.
Lamia wrote:
Have to disagree with you there. Quite a bit of “passing” went on, particularly during the time of the Cherokee removal (the Trail of Tears). Those who could “pass” and who had avoided being entered in the federal “rolls” of Cherokee had every reason to deny their heritage and blend into the white community.
The Cherokee had done quite a bit of mixing with whites by the time of the removal. Chief John Ross is a notable example. His father was Scottish, and his mother was only part Cherokee.
The Cherokee and Southern whites had lived in close proximity to one another for some 200 years prior to the removal. The Cherokee at the time of the removal were (and as far as I know still are) noted for their fair complexions as compared with the other Indian Nations. Draw your own conclusions.
As for the OP, I have to go with a combination of 2 and 3. Those of mixed race were regarded as “black” by the community, and so tended to marry back into the “black” community. Those who were light enough to pass, and who married into the white community, hid their backgrounds (even from their own children) to avoid social repercussions.
The usual fiction was that a suspect ancestor was “black Irish” or “black Dutch.” This thread is the first time I’ve ever seen a “black Portuguese” variant of this deception, but it fits right into that tradition.
Just my 0.02 as a white person w/black heritage: Most people laugh at me if I mention my black great-grandfather, as I’m about the whitest white person you’ll ever meet, skin tone-wise (red hair & blue eyes).
My ancestry doesn’t teach me anything about what it’s like to be discriminated against, as I’m not visibly “black”.
Unless the topic of one’s racial heritage comes up, I don’t normally discuss it. I mean, how many times does someone introduce him/herself to you by saying “Hello. Although I appear Caucasian, please note that I do have black ancestry.” So you probably know more “white” people with black ancestry than you think you do.
I suspect this is true. But for reason it seems as if I’ve encountered plenty of white people who stake claim to their Native American roots–outside and inside the context of heritage discussions–but I’ve never encountered white ppl doing the same for black ancestors. So there’s got to be more to it than just “the topic doesn’t ever come up”.
I think the “What are you?” question comes up a lot among black people. If you don’t look like everybody’s idea of the standard “black” person, then it’s quite common to get questioned about your heritage. For me, it’s strange because even though I’m ambiguous looking enough to pass for biracial, that’s not what I am. Both are my parents are black and their parents are black and their parents are black. People ask me why I look the way I do and I can only tell them I don’t know because everyone in my family (which the exceptions of some distant Irish and Blackfoot blood) are black people. Black people, I might add, with their own unaccounted for racial ambiguities.
I’d imagine that for white people it’s different. If you look “exotic” and are white, it seems like you are more likely to get questioned about national origin rather than race, which catergorizes us in a more rigid way than ethnicity does. A swarthy white man is more likely to be asked if he’s part Sicilian than part black.
Can’t believe nobody has mentioned this. It seems obviously part of it…
Being white is, in our multi cultural age, boring. Especially if you are, as I am, more or less generically anglo-saxon. How dull is it to be from the same place as all the other kids at school? Saying you’re part-black is a little bit interesting, but there are all-black people all around. It isn’t that big a deal. Yes, there is some racism involved, too, which is what the OP was angling at.
But Native American … major cool points. If you’re from the East, you may never have met a real live red injun. It conjures up the image of spending time walking through the woods with your grandfather learing how to hunt or hearing folklore by the fire from grandma. Unless you’re scananavian-looking, who’s gonna dispute it? (And if you are, there’s you own cool ethnicity-- Vikings and all) It is exactly the kind of bullshit “my dad’s cooler than yours” that 12-year old boys live for. And most of us are 12 years old at least part of the time.
Personally, when I hear those stories about 1/16 cherokee or whatever, I take it with a large grain of salt, especially when it’s something that somebody goes out of their way to mention (which excludes present company).
Here’s a test: go to a white town next to a reservation (where intermarriage is far more likely) and see how many people make a point of mentioning it. I reckon few.
I think furt made some good points. In *some * cases, the claim of a small amount of Indian ancestry is wishful thinking on someone’s part. For white Americans who want to think themselves exotic, an Indian connection is ideal – but a black connection? Not likely.
Personally, I think that tiny amounts of “something different” in one’s ancestry are pretty irrelevant. If it’s so far back that it does not show in your appearence, if you have no real connection to the culture in question, if you don’t possess any details at all about the ancestor from whom the “something different” is said to originate (such as his/her name, where he/she lived, when born/died, etc.) – it’s not really *real *, if you see what I mean. If the story handed down to you is true or isn’t true, what real difference does it make? Even if true, the amt of “different” ancestry is too small to matter.
People tend to think I’m Italian when they first meet me, though I haven’t a bit of Italian heritage that I know of. I look a bit like Vincent D’ Nofrio with somewhat darker skin. I have black ancestry (my paternal grandmother) and American Indian ancestry (maternal grandmother) along with Jewish and Mexican. I don’t advertise my black ancestry, but neither do I hide it, same as with my Indian heritage. In my case, #5 would apply, mostly because the subject just doesn’t come up, and when it does I choose to call myself multiracial (being well aware that there is only one race–human–but also being aware that that word better conveys the meaning intended than any alternative I know of). I have had more than one person tell me I look “ethnic” (doesn’t everyone?), but wasn’t sure what ethnicity.
Funny you should say that. I’m Sicilian and my interest in my ethnic heritage led me to embrace my African ancestry. I traced my family name to a place on the coast of North Africa. I was overjoyed to find that I had ancestors from Africa when I read a book titled History of Islamic Sicily, which told of the ethnic mix in the Middle Ages in Sicily including Arabs, Berbers, Persians, and Black Sub-Saharan Africans.
We don’t have any genealogical documentation going back that far, but I mean it’s kind of obvious. My dad is pure Sicilian and in the summer when he gets the sun on him he turns a few shades darker than people who are so-called Black. But my dad is so-called white. Does this make any sense? After reading Malcolm X I do not self-identify as “white.” Malcolm said “The ‘white’ attitude had been removed from their minds by the religion of Islam.”
Among my Sicilian relatives I have found a total refusal to admit this side of our heritage. The Northern Italians are half-German and they taunt the Sicilians by calling them “Arabs” as if that was supposed to be an insult. It’s about time the Sicilians embraced their African heritage and, like other despised groups, take this epithet that was used against them and wear it as a badge of honor.
People all around the Mediterranean basin have been mixing with one another since the dawn of humanity. What’s so hard to admit about that?
I am white and Native American from (reputedly) both sides, and would like to speak to a little of that assimilation thing…
This is on the maternal side - there’s always been a great deal of pride in this history - even to the fact that my great-great-great grandma took off with another man. 
The coast Salish were Not Pleased at the white incursion, and vigorously objected to their presence - including the burning of Fort Nasqually in 1849. However, between 1849 and 1856, when the peace treaties were made, Pat Kanim - who was the head of a loose confederation of Salish (Tulalip, Snoqualmie, Skykomish, Nasqually, etc…), scored himself a trip to San Francisco, and he got a peek at exactly how many of these white folks were about to descend upon him.
Being a far from stupid man (read the Point Elliott treaty sometime, and you can see what I mean), he returned home and immediately made friends with the white folks - and began marrying his daughters off to prosperous-looking white men. If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.
In our branch, there were some ugly things that happened to my ancestress - she bore her white husband two daughters then split for Canada, after many beatings. The children were kindly raised by Phoebe Judson - a truly amazing woman. However, that meant our great-great grandma was separated from the First Nations community. None of us have married First Nations since, partially due to proximity (hard to marry one when you don’t know any), but mostly because it’s been tough to find a partner to our tastes that hasn’t been taken since birth - and jealously guarded to boot.
And yes, not so long ago, it seems - it was shameful to talk about First Nations ancestry as well. My grandparents on my fathers side still Will Not Talk about my great-great grandma Belle, who was supposedly Apache. However, there are no pictures of her, and very little in the family record about her, so I have been unable to confirm anything. As I said, they won’t talk about her. My paternal grandparents also do not want to talk about the fact that my mother is status - they didn’t want their precious son to marry That Woman anyways. According to them, they are Perfectly White, our ancestors were Perfectly White, in fact that side of the family is so Perfectly White I’m surprised they don’t glow in the dark.
I bet if they did the geneology research I did and came up with the same family of German Jews, they’d plotz. 
Oh yeah, my uncle Jerry is black Portugese - the Moors have an ancient history in Spain…
Heh, heh. Enjoyed your post, Tsisphone!