My first GD question, and yes, it's a religious one.

**His4ever wrote:

All I can do is point out where it says that He did die for our sins in God’s word. Now please interpret this sentence for me since you don’t think I have it right : Christ - died - for - our- sins - according - to - the- scriptures. 1 Cor. 15:3. If the words don’t mean what they say, then what do they mean?**

I’ll agree, that’s what it says in English. But the New Testament wasn’t written in English, it was written in Greek of that time period (the 1st & 2nd century, CE).

So, can you show us that the translation is accurate? Further, can you tell us who wrote those words? To whom were they addressed? What was the reason for writing those words? Was it personal opinion? An expression of theology? Was the Holy Spirit moving that person to write? If so, how do you know that?

I’m not trying to trip you up or confound you. I’m trying to understand the logic by which you make the declaration that your interpretation is right and another one is wrong. Is that so hard to understand?

to H4E

Don’t you think human sacrifices to God, for favors, in the twenty-first century is a bit archaic. Especially since Jesus asks us to love, not kill. Why don’t Christians follow Jesus. He said to the rich man who asked how to be saved, to follow Him. I think that’s the real path to salvation.

Love
Leroy

I suggest you read the book “Why Christianity Must Change or Die” or any of that authors (spong i think) other books, you will find your realizations and questions are normal and natural, let the logic flow. Another book is the “Power of Myth” by Joe Campbell, its also a PBS series.

Thank you, laurielesley, I have known for some time that Christianity was becoming obsolete because of their insistence on teaching church doctrine instead of truth concerning the Bible.

I wasn’t aware others were writing about it. I thought that maybe near death experiences would point them in the right direction, back to their roots, but there is too much controversy right now. I know that in the future NDEs will be looked upon as real, because they are, but for now we just keep trying.

Love
Leroy

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9

No, I don’t think a sacrifice is archaic. God doesn’t have to do things according to our logic or what we think is sensible. He’s plainly revealed the seriousness of sin and that a sacrifice is needed to atone for sin. If I decide I don’t like that idea, well God isn’t answerable to me for what He does and decides. It’s all through the old testament in the constant sacrifice of clean, spotless animals. He is God and He is holy. He has the authority to tell us the way things are and the reveal to us His plan of redemption. It’s up to us to accept it or not. All of the words of Jesus are important, the words about love and the words about other things. He taught about many things, including loving each other. He also revealed He would die for the remissions of our sins. Once and for all sin would be taken care of, no more need of animal sacrifices that only covered sin. All one must do is trust in this. And no, that doesnt mean just going on and living your life as you please. We are to love each other. One part of loving someone means sharing the truth with them even if it’s unpopular. Another way of showing love is meeting someones physical needs. Since you don’t seem to believe what the rest of the Bible says, what about Jesus words when He Himself states at the last supper : “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remissions of sins?” Jesus death wasn’t some random accident because He was going around preaching too much about love as important as that is. The Romans had no knowledge or understanding of that part of it. They were simply an instrument in accomplishing God’s purposes whether they knew it or not. Also, Lekatt, since you seem to hold Jesus in such high regard, perhaps even you love Him, I fail to understand why you refuse to accept Him as your Savior believing in the wonderfully precious sacrifice He made for you. If you love Him why can’t you take that step? I have been praying for you and will continue to do so as the Lord brings you to my mind.

Freyr, Yes your reasoning is hard for me to understand. Do you not believe that the translators were diligent and guided by God in correctly translating from the Hebrew and Greek? You don’t believe that there were people who were determined and decicated to translating it exactly as it was written and that God was able to see that He had people who would do this and follow His guidance? And it teaches in more than one place about Jesus’ dying for our sins. It’s not just an isolated one verse doctrine. The clear plain teaching of God’s plan of salvation is so evident and clearly understood by millions of Christians around the world, I don’t understand why you don’t see it. Is it because you don’t want it to be true or it doesn’t agree with your beliefs? Each person must decide for themselves whether to believe it. If you want to continually be on the treadmill of analyzing and analyzng and saying well does it really say this, was it translated right, etc. etc. then that’s your privilege. That way you don’t have to make a once and for all decision, right? I can’t prove anything to you or even that God exists. I can’t prove to you my “interpretation” is correct though I don’t know how else you would interpet what the words that say Jesus died for our sins mean. It’s about faith. Either you believe God or you don’t.

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must beleive that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” Hebrews 11:6

I don’t really know why I keep coming back to this thread. I know I’ll never be able to answer all your questions to your satisfaction or convince you of anything. But I’m certainly concerned about you, and I do pray for you. Once again, this has gotten longer than I intended.

Love in Christ, His4ever <>< †

WHERE did lekatt say that he refuses to accept Jesus as his “saviour”?

If you don’t follow Christ’s way, you haven’t accepted him.

Didn’t Jesus lament about how people would come to him whining, but never even give a thought to what he kept telling them?

To His4Ever

I have met and talked with Jesus several times. Sat in a class on forgiveness He taught. He is a warm, compassionate individual, ready to help all who will listen.

Love
Leroy

Keep on praying for me, all prayer helps.

It is possible to understand the spirit world from the two rules that are prominant in it.

  1. Love one another.

  2. You will reap what you sow.

If you are looking for judgement and correction, then it is the second one that enforces the first. These rules are for all. No special groups of any kind. If you don’t love very well, then all the unloving things will keep coming back to you until you finally say: “There must be a better way.” At that point you will find the path.

Love
Leroy

Okay. With what you have to say, I completely agree – that’s the picture as presented in, e.g., Hebrews, based on the O.T. law of sacrifice as atoning for sin.

It’s vitally important in communicating to people in the 21st Century that we Christians keep in mind that much of what the Bible contains is messages targeted at the people those messages were delivered to. Jesus Himself picks up on this in his comments about what Moses was told to say to the Israelites “owing to your hardness of heart” – “but I say to you, love your enemies, do good to those who revile you…” The lex talionis – eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life – is just but not merciful. For it Jesus substitutes the law of mercy and the conquering of evil by the doing of good.

In this same context, many modern people see the picture of God’s attitude towards sin as unjust. Being omniscient, He can see the certainty that all men will sin – and yet He created them with the potential for sin, and sees fit to punish them eternally for the breaking of His law. To cover their sins, they are supposed to perform a ritualistic act of killing an animal on an altar – and for this, ultimately, He substitutes the killing of Jesus on the cross as the blood substitute which is the propitiation of our sins. Can you grasp how someone without a clear concept of God’s justice and love can see this as abusive and hateful on His part? It sort of paints Him as the bizarre, mentally unstable petty tyrant who says things like “I’m going to kill them all!! Bwahahaha!!”

On the other hand, it was in the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. that Joe Average Citizen finally came to grasp with the idea that people were trammelling the rights of Black Americans and that it was not just radical wierdos that were fighting that – that people were prepared to die for the sake of freedom. And the most effective advocate for gay rights in the history of Denver didn’t accomplish a single thing while he was there – but when he moved back to Laramie, Wyoming and got picked up in a bar, the world suddenly realized that gay bashers were not just “giving gays what they deserved” but were out-and-out evil.

Jesus died for my sins. I believe that firmly. But that He died in order that some divine equation of shedding blood to buy off the punishment for sin that needed to be fulfilled might be, I have my doubts. I honor, respect, and adore Him for His self-sacrifice. And I don’t buy whole hog the theology that says that in doing so He bought off God’s wrath.

God saves us from ourselves – from the evil that we allow to live within us, from the self-centeredness that allows us to ignore the plight of another. And in the example of Jesus’s life and death we see the man living for others, whose whole existence was predicated on living out God’s truth in a human life and dying for our sakes.

True. Please note that the two commandments He identified as containing the whole Law, placing them above and beyond every other thing that God or man ever said or might ever say, are to love God with every fibre of one’s being and to love one’s fellow man as one loves oneself.

Yep. But I’d take it a step beyond that – to love my fellow man means to empathize with him, to “walk in his shoes” and understand how he feels, not to quote Scripture in a way that he sees as judging him without any sense of how he must feel at hearing that particular verse over and over again.

God never told me to use the Bible as a means of enforcing my opinions on my fellow men. Instead, He told me to love them, to refrain from judgment of them as I might fear judgment for my own sins, to do unto them exactly as I would do unto Him. And He called you to do the same.

First, I’m confident that they were diligent, intent on giving as accurate a translation as they could. But I don’t necessarily believe that any given translator was guided by God. One might place the same claim on the work of Joseph Smith Jr. in producing the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and neither of us believe that he was guided by God and protected from error. Likewise Mohammed firmly believed that he was reciting the revelations of God that were collected in the Koran. I tend to disagree for the most part, and I suspect you do too.

First, Freyr is not a Christian, though he has indeed had an experience of encountering God, by his own testimony. Second, it’s a blatant insult to most thoughtful and morally-intentioned non-Christians or liberal Christians to assume that they are trying to avoid the choice of “following God’s Word” or doing things they might not want to and avoiding doing things that they might want to do. I’ve seen this before from other people, and that may be how they themselves feel, but I can assure you from personal encounters with a lot of such people that they are doing no such thing, but acting as their own conscience and intellect guide them, and that that sort of comment is the sort of insult that means that the person it’s directed at will ignore anything else said, or else react in appropriate anger, since the person making it is in no way showing love or compassion in Christ’s name. I’m stressing this, because I am aware of how hard it is to understand the thinking and mind of another, and I’m fairly certain that you did not mean it as an insult, but I can guarantee that the non-Christian reading it will see it as one. It’s a caution on making assumptions about others’ motivations, not a condemnation of what you’re trying to say in it.

And the choice is hard. But that doesn’t mean people won’t make it – they merely have to see the Gospel as Good News directed at them, not the attempt by some half-baked nut at trying to force other people to live by the rules that he thinks are right. That’s where God’s love and living it out in your dealings with them comes in – because people see in you what Christ’s love means in everyday life, and want to share in it. But you have to make an effort to show it to them. As St. Francis of Assisi once said, “Proclaim the Gospel unceasingly. When necessary, use words.” :slight_smile:

Dear, you’re doing it because of a burden on your heart and the command of our Lord to make all people into His disciples. And I will never fault you for that. I get critical when I see your posts as counter-productive, serving to turn people away from Him through poorly chosen words and an insistence on dwelling on particular aspects of how He works out our salvation. But let me praise you for your sincere efforts on behalf of others, because it’s obvious to me and even to some non-believers that your heart is in the right place.

Wow. Once again bravo, Polycarp, bravo.

Thanks Polycarp for the great post.

Love is the central theme of Christianity, it is the only thing that needs to be taught.

When a near death experiencer moves into the light, all fear is released. Only God’s love and acceptance is left. Without fear the mind clears and decisions are based on love. There is no more guessing or apprehension of what to do, all things move into place.

The old beliefs fall as dust to the ground and fear is no longer a believable alternative. It is not easy to live in the physical after the experience, usually takes a few years to readjust. Took me about three years to comprehend life among fear again. It is living in the world but not of the world that makes it possible.

I wish everyone could release their fear of God, death and life, what a great place this would be.

Love
Leroy

Well, thanks Polycarp. You’re right I do have a burden, especially when I feel there’s an untruth or what I believe to be deception that isn’t being recognized being put forth. You’re also right in that my intentions are not to insult people, it just seems to come out that way to some people I guess. I’m not trying to turn people away, yet I don’t think the answer is to just tell people everything’s hunky dorey, just go on your way, do nothing, believe nothing, change nothing, etc. I beleive there’s a battle going on for the souls of people, there may not be anyone here who agrees with that, I don’t know. But Satan hates people and knows he’s condemned and wants to take as many with him as possible. The Bible warns of deception in many places and warns that the devil can appear to be what he isn’t. I’m aware you don’t share many of my beliefs, Polycarp, but I like you. And I like Lekatt too even though I can’t ever agree with the doctrine he’s putting forth because of his near death experience. I have nothing whatsoever against him personally but I could not and would not ever tell people what he’s telling them. That they need do nothing, be nothing, believe nothing. That they are safe and secure at all times, etc. I don’t see that when I read the Scripture. People can only be safe if they accept God’s loving provision for our salvation which is Christ.
Lekatt has never ansered me about Matthew 26:28 where Jesus plainly says His blood would be shed for many for the remission of sins. He seems to put such emphasis on Jesus’ teachings above the rest of the Scripture yet he still insists that Jesus didn’t die for our sins. Jesus Himself says otherwise. I’m greatly concerned for him and those who listen to him. The only thing I can do is to continue to pray. My apolgies for not sharing what I believe to be truth in a way so as not to aggravate people but sometimes that’s just not possible. People are going to be mad no matter how you say it. Have a great evening and sorry for butting in here again.

Thanks, Polycarp. You’re right, I do have a burden and rest assured my intentions aren’t meant to be insultive though some take it that way. I’m simply conerned for peoples souls. I think there’s a battle going on for the souls of people, but I’m sure many don’t share that concern. I like you and I like Lekatt but I could and would never tell people the things he’s telling them. He’s never anwered my question about Matthew 26:28 where Jesus Himself said He would be shedding His blood for the remissions of sins. He says Jesus didn’t die for our sins, but Jesus says otherwise. He seems to put a higher importance on the words of Jesus than the rest of God’s word so why doens’t he believe what He said about Himself? I’m very concerned about b]Lekatt** and those who listen to him. I hold no personal animosity toward him but feel he’s not telling people the truth, he’s telling them what he learned in a near death experience and reinterpreting the Bible in light of that experience. I’m not tryin to antagonize you or him, just revealing my very real concerns. The only thing I guess I really can do is to continue to pray for him and those who listen to him. Anyway, I didn’t mean this to be all about him. My apologies if I’ve sounded insulting to anyone, but some are going to be upset no matter how you share the truth I’m afraid. Sorry to butt in on this thread again.

Oh no, another double posting! I don’t know why this keeps happening. I didn’t think it went through the first time so I made another post…sorry!

The Hamsters are Catholic, I think. :wink:

Hehehe…

Guinastasia, are you bribing the hamsters again? Look, you’ve got to quit putting holy water in their bottles! :smiley:

To His4Ever

I will answer your questions when you answer some of mine.

For instance: Jesus called Himself the Son of Man, He also corrected a person who called Him good, saying: “only God is good.” Jesus said we could do as He did and even more.

There is nothing I can find that says Jesus is God. Maybe you could show me where. He did say the Father and I are one. This is true, we all have our being in God, but that doesn’t make us God. God is within all of us and we are within God. But we are not God. This is consistent with Jesus’ teachings and NDEs.

No one ever called Him God or looked upon Him as God that I remember.

I believe it was at the Council of Nicene that Jesus was elevated to God status. Perhaps Polycarp will know.

Show me where someone calls Him God in the Bible or where He calls Himself God.

Love
Leroy

Without wishing to pre-empt H4E, try these on for size:
]John 14

Matthew 16

Any comments?

Grim

What about where Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I am” in John 8:58? Read the whole chapter if you want the context. This seems interesting in light of the fact that “I AM” was the name for Himself that God gave Moses from the burning bush. Of course, I accept the whole Bible as God’s word, not just the words of Jesus and as I’ve probably said before it says plainly in Colossians 2:9 “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”. Also read the first chapter of Hebrews, especially verse 8 where it says “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” This is the Father talking to the Son. Jesus accepted worship, He forgave sins. Only God has the right to do this. There are just too many scriptures pointing to His deity to ignore imo.

I just thought of one other scripture. John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and My God.
This is after Jesus’ resurrection. Read the whole chapter for context if you wish. Thomas is clearly calling Him Lord and God and Jesus does not correct Him. I’m sure you’ll find some way around any scripture I give you as you usually do but it doesn’t change what it says. In John 8 Jesus says He is “I AM” , God’s name from the burning bush, In John 20 Thomas calls him Lord and God and Jesus doesn’t correct Him. This plus all the other scriptures clearly pointing to His deity makes a solid case imho.