Let me give three examples of what Freyr is talking about, since they’re important to the approach we seem to be taking here:
Thou shalt not kill. Sounds pretty explicit, doesn’t it? But virtually all evangelical Christians support the death penalty, and quote another O.T. passage in support of their views. I’m ashamed to say that at this point my Hebrew fails me, but it’s my understanding that the actual passage translated as that commandment means, essentially, “Thou shalt not commit murder” and has reference to individuals taking the right to take another’s life into their own hands, not to the debatable right of the state to keep the peace by fighting to repel invasion or by executing serious offenders against its laws.
Honor the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. In two of the three places in the Torah where this is found, it’s made very clear that this is the seventh day, i.e., from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Yet Christians understand this not in its literal meaning but that God commands that a day be set aside for rest, refreshment, and time spent with Him in prayer and worship. Because, in their view, a healthy life includes time off from labor and time “recharging one’s spiritual batteries” from His inexhaustible store. Since the day when creation began, the day when the Holy Spirit was sent, and above all the day when Christ rose from the dead are all on Sunday, that day is set aside as the Lord’s Day and it, rather than Saturday, is the day one should keep holy (there is a minority view on this).
Various commands against sex. To hear some Christians fulminate, one would think that God has a major problem with human sexuality, contrary to the clear words of Scripture. Rather, what He objects to is what’s technically called lust – which is not the feeling of sexual desire, but rather the objectification of the sex partner as a sex object rather than a person, to the casualness of some sexual relationships. Sex in the Christian view is supposed to be a part of an ongoing committed relationship, especially in view of the likelihood of children being conceived who will need both physical and moral/spiritual support to grow up into healthy adults.
Hence the literal wording of a lot of these commands, seen in the context of 21st Century American, Australasian, and European society, has little to do with what they are intended to prohibit.
I went to church for years and honestly did not spend the time to understand what they were saying. I’d hear things like “Let Jesus into your heart” and wonder what does that mean? It sounded so simple and yet it was preached as something that required a big decision. So, I started reading and listening and I found out that there were many things I was asked to accept in order to “Let Jesus into my heart”. There isn’t one of those things that I couldn’t force myself to believe (isn’t that a lovely thought), except the one that says that that those that don’t believe are damned for eternity. It is the exclusivity of Christianity that has come to make it hard for many to “Let Jesus into their hearts”. We can’t meet the test of being a true Christian, until we are allowed to “Let him in” without all that outdated baggage. I’ve “let Jesus into my heart” but about all he is carrying is an overnight bag with the word “LOVE” on it. He always did travel light.
The so-called “salvation” doctrine IMO has done more to run people off than bring them into the churches. Now that most can read and write, a truer, clearer view of “what are we doing here in this church?” is needed. It is time to learn about Love.
I think, in order to be a Christian, you must leave your salvation up to God-leave it in his hands, and do what you are commanded to do-not because you want to go to Heaven, or whatever.
IMHO there is no such thing as being saved. You are never lost. That concept has been thought up by early church leaders in order to control the people. God does not condemn anyone. Yes, I know what it says in the Bible, but I, and thousands of other NDEers do not find that to be true in actual experience.
God is unconditional love. We humans make up all the negative stuff, not God.
Yes, we should do things because they are the right things to do, not because we are afraid of going to “hell” or some other punishment. God does not punish, He is compassionate, full of love and caring. We should try very hard to be like Him. There is great power in doing so.
Love
Leroy
Hmmm, what makes you believe that your experience should be the guideline to what truth is rather than the word of God?
Surely you realize that an experience can be deceiving. So can feelings. You said that in your opinion there’s no such thing as being saved. Well, of course you know the Bible disagrees with you. So you decided once and for all to base truth on your near death experience, correct?
What makes you think your interpretation of the Word of God is more valid than mine? We’re both Christians. We both read the same words, although I suspect we read them in different translations and we read different portions at different times. Still, what we focus on and what we believe differs.
Hmmm, what makes you believe that the Bible is the word of God?
I am more sure of my experiences and feelings than I am of something I read in a book. If I have bacon and eggs for breakfast, I am sure I had bacon and eggs for breakfast. It works like that, can’t you see. People who say not to trust your feelings and experiences, I ignore, because I know that they don’t realize what they are saying. It is impossible to live in this world without trusting your experiences and feelings. Actually, the Bible doesn’t disagree with me. Only your interpretation of it, which I also ignore. Yes, I will go with my experience, until some better, or truer experience comes along. The only deception here is trying to control people by teaching them to fear God. I have absolutely no fear of God or the after life. Nothing you can say will change that in the least. I was there, I saw the light, and the light was God, and He is unconditional love. There, in the spirit world, is perfect logic, no contradictions, no guessing, just love.
His4Ever, God says that we are to trust in Him and believe on the name of Jesus. IMHO, and with generosity towards what they mean, I see that as exactly what Kniz and Lekatt are themselves doing.
Yet it appears that you have a problem with at least what Lekatt has to say. Would you be so kind as to clarify what you think regarding their salvation? (I realize, and so do they, that you would not presume to speak for what God does and does not do – I’m asking, and placing on record against any flaming, that your answer is expressing your opinion on where if at all they fall short, not a judgment of them.
I’m asking in the interests of clarity on what exactly it is you’re saying, or that they’re saying that you disagree with. And I want to ask all members to not take His4Ever to task for answering me frankly. I’m putting her on the spot here, and I realize it, and I think everyone else does – if she gives me an honest answer for the continuation of debate, she is not subject to being condemned and taken to task for doing so on request.
Which, of course, doesn’t mean that we cannot disagree with her POV – but let’s not flame her for being kind enough to indulge me with a frank answer to a fair question.
My understanding is that Lekatt doesn’t believe there is such a thing as salvation. He believes everyone is automatically safe and secure, no need to do anything. Correct? I dont find this teaching in the Bible. As to what I believe about his or anyone’s salvation, all I can tell you is what the Bible says about it. Those who have Christ, have life. God’s wrath abides on those who don’t. In other words, those who don’t accept God’s provision for our salvation, namely Jesus’ death and shed blood on the cross for our sins, will go to hell. This isn’t my personal teaching, it’s what Scripture teaches. I believe I’ve probably said this stuff before. Don’t know what else to say. It’s not my place to say where anyone is or isn’t going as I don’t knows what decisions they’ll make before their death. And by accepting Christ, I don’t mean must a mental belief. We must put our trust in what He’s done for us, believing in the heart. Lekatt doesn’t believe Jesus’ died for our sins. I’ll never be convinced of that because I’ve read to many Scriptures that say otherwise. I’m already aware that most people here don’t agree with this.
The scriptures you use to prove your beliefs just don’t said what you say they do. I went to the address you provided and found:
“God’s Love: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16”
“God’s Plan: Jesus said, “I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly” (that it might be full and meaningful) John 10:10”
There is nothing I disagree with here. Basically it says to believe in Jesus, to believe Him means to follow Him, do what He says in His teachings. There is nothing here about sacrifice, sin, or salvation. It’s ok as it was written.
In the second one, again no argument here, He is talking about following His teachings so we can get more out of life, and that is true. If we love one another, don’t judge and forgive, we are sure to have fuller lives.
It not what the scriptures say, it’s how they are twisted to mean something different.
If you’d read down further I’m sure you would have found things to disagree with. What about the part that says man is sinful and separated from God? For all have sinned and, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 kjv. The result of sin is death, Romans 6:23. Then farther down it talks about Jesus being the only way to bridge the gap between God and man. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, Romans 5:8 kjv. Read on down and it’ll talk about how Christ died for our sins (ICor 15:3) and rose again. But as many as received him, to them game he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, John 1:12. It tells of how we must receive Christ through faith and by personal invitation.
The teachings I talk about are in the Bible. I’ve not twisted anything. The only reason I can come up with that you don’t accept them is that they don’t agree with the teachings of your near death experience. Christ died for our sins, He is the only way to God and no amount of denying this truth will make it untrue.
Here’s another link on the plan of salvation for anyone who is interested:
The Bible tells us, GOD IS GREATLY TO BE FEARED IN THE ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS-Ps 89:7. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US-1 Jn 4:19
I copied this from your second address: don’t you see the contraditions in these verses? It is impossible to love and fear the same thing at the same time. It is possible to switch between fear and love of the same thing. Either one is not logical.
God is love. It doesn’t matter to me how many verses you find to prove your point, there will still be plenty of versus left to disprove it.
Love
Leroy
Polycarp, Do you see now where Lekatt and I differ? I would have thought it would have been obvious before but I hope this has clarified it for you. He believes there’s no need for anyone to be saved, I believe the Bible teaches otherwise; it’s that simple. The difference between our beliefs surely must be clear by now.
I don’t know if this is true or not but I’ve heard from other Christians that the word “fear” in reference to God means to reverently trust Him. The word “fear” may not be used in the same way in all cases. I don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself, therefore I believe the seeming contradictions are simply because we don’t understand or know how to properly interpret it yet.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever. Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7
I will not presume to speak for Polycarp, but I don’t think anyone here is unaware of where you (H4E) and Lekatt differ, we’re just a little perplexed as to why you differ; a number of times you have implied that non-believers are just being stubborn in refusing to believe, but from where I’m standing (which I fool myself into thinking is a fairly neutral place), it looks for all the world as if you are the one that’s being stubborn; almost everyone else seems to be able to at least begin to relate personal reasons why they believe (or don’t believe) what they do (or don’t).
I can’t tell you that my interpretation as you call it is more valid than yours. I simply read a sentence and see what it says. If you read the same sentence and see something different, then that’s your right. Let’s pick a verse and you tell me what you see: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:3. I see here that Jesus died for our sins, contrary to what Lekatt says. What do you see here? Let’s try another one: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23. What do you see? John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. What is your take on this? John 3:36:He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth upon him. How do you interpet these passages, if you don’t agree with mine? To me, it plainly says that Jesus died for our sins and only through Him can we go to the Father. It tells me that those who don’t have the Son will receive God’s wrath. If you don’t agree, well, we can agree to disagree.
I may be one of few on this board with these beliefs and to you they may seem unusual but millions of Christians all over the world believe these things. Millions of us believe that salvation is necessary and it comes only through acceptance of Christ and His sacrifice. For the life of me I don’t get why you think I’m being stubborn. I and many others are simply standing on what (I’ll add the words “we believe” so as not to rile) the word of God says. I’m not going to stop believing these things just because you think you’ve come up with valid reasons why I shouldn’t. It’s called faith. I’m not being stubborn, I’m believing God.
Saying ‘I believe’, or that something is ‘just my opinion’ is fine, we can handle that(doesn’t mean nobody will question it though).
Explaining that you’re only saying it because it’s what you think we want to hear and implying that you don’t really mean it at all is patronising and completely destroys the effect.