[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=]
Amazon will do Next-Day shipping. Surel the extra cost is well worth not having to waste several hours and however much gas it takes to travel 75 miles there and back, no?
[/QUOTE]
I guess I misspoke (er… typed), it’s only available on the Amazon Marketplace. And I know how Amazon Marketplace sellers work. No amount of money would guarantee that I would get the book before the 2nd class. The only to do that was (I thought) to go to the bookstore.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
I am not cut out for school. After I finished my BS, I assumed I would be done forever. But no, my chosen profession, librarian, has a strict Master’s Degree requirement. So over the last year and a half, I’ve been slowing working my way through a Master’s of Library Science. But the people that run this school are not making it easy.
[/QUOTE]
Holy Hell! To be a librarian you need a fucking Master’s Degree in Library Science?
Who knew? Well good luck, I have always loved my libraries and my librarians, but I really had no idea that you guys were that educated.
[QUOTE=Algher]
You assume that other campuses let the prof control the room size, the location, and the number of students! I don’t know how many times I have had to walk around to find the class I was teaching because it got moved at the last minute to accomodate more students for me, or I was under-subscribed so they gave me less room and the other more popular prof more room. Ordering enough books is an art, sadly. It COULD be run better, but that would take hiring some decent employees at a good rate to run the prediction engines.
[/quote]
Well, i sympathize with your room problems, but i’m not sure that’s especially relevant to the question of how many books to order.
I admit that i have never had to order books for a survey course of 200-300 students, and i appreciate that it might be difficult to order the right number of books for such a large class, but i believe that, if in doubt, you should always order more than you think you’ll need rather than fewer. As i said earlier, i’d prefer that the bookstore suffer the inconvenience of sending the books back tha my students suffer the inconvenience of not having the books for class.
[QUOTE=Algher]
BTW - there is a patch for the older versions of Word that lets you read Word 2007 files.
[/quote]
I’m aware of the patch, but it still requires you to have purchased an older version of Word.
[QUOTE=Algher]
To make a PDF, the professor has to buy the software - it isn’t created for free. Assuming that all of your students have Word is not that evil of an assumption in this day and age, especially since you can buy them cheap from the bookstore as part of MSFTs “hook them young” strategery.
[/QUOTE]
OpenOffice, in addition to offering a perfectly good free word processor, will also export files as PDFs. So free creation of PDFs is, in fact, well within the reach of everyone, professors and students alike.
Also, i don’t believe that part of a university teacher’s job description is helping Microsoft in its “Hook 'em young” strategy. If they want to buy Word, great, but they should also be able to participate in classes without it.
[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=]
I’m curious how that works. Can’t the students work Amazon’s website?
[/QUOTE]
Sure they can. That’s why i used the qualifier “essentially,” rather than something like “literally.”
The problem is that many students don’t find out what books they need until the first class meeting, and if they then order from Amazon or some other online retailer, some books might not arrive before they need to use them. Also, many students prefer to buy in person from the campus bookstore, and i don’t think it’s too much to expect for that store to order sufficient quantities.
I always make clear to my students that they don’t have to buy their books from the campus store, and that they might find that they can get better prices online. And whenever possible, i tell them that used copies are acceptable. I even give them links to lesser-known online retailers like Alibris and StrandBooks. But i still think that the campus bookstore should get in as many copies as i tell them i will need.
[QUOTE=sinjin]
I don’t know how it works at your school, but at mine, while the Professor does indeed order the book, in no way, shape or form does he/she decide how many copies are actually ordered. The number ordered is determined by someone, somewhere based on secret calculations, ritualistic sacrifices and/or the mulling thru of the entrails of fowl or possibly flounders.
In my 20 years of experience the number of books ordered vs the number of students enrolled wishing to purchase said book has never come close to being equal.
[/QUOTE]
That’s so apt sinjin. It’s a perfect description of my uni experience in recent years while studying law. I can only imagine that the conversations have been something like:
Lecturer: This a compulsory subject. I will have 300 students enrolled.
Bookshop: Great. We’ll order in 10 copies to start with and then re-assess the demand at the end of week 6.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Here, you tell the bookstore what books you want, and how many copies they should order. Which is how it should be.
[/quote]
How does that work? We order books at the tail end of the semester, and depending on the course, you might not know how many are going to be in the class. I think the bookstore here uses historical info, or the class cap, to decide the numbers.
I’m teaching a seminar this semester, capped at 12. At one point I was full and had five students on the waitlist. Eleven showed up on the first day. Last semester the typical enrollment was 15; 27 enrolled. Here, until the class is capped, it really is a guessing game.
I encourage my students to seek all kinds of ways of getting books - the internet, former enrollees, bookstores… I might even be undercutting the bookstore. It’s a hell of a lot better than it was when I was an undergrad, when the idea of finding an academic book anywhere but the campus bookstore was merely an abstraction.
I honestly have never thought one second about this. I post my documents as PDFs because I don’t want people easily downloading and altering them. If I was to send a Word document I’d expect a student to have access to it via the labs on campus, if not their own copy.
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
How does that work? We order books at the tail end of the semester, and depending on the course, you might not know how many are going to be in the class. I think the bookstore here uses historical info, or the class cap, to decide the numbers.
I’m teaching a seminar this semester, capped at 12. At one point I was full and had five students on the waitlist. Eleven showed up on the first day. Last semester the typical enrollment was 15; 27 enrolled. Here, until the class is capped, it really is a guessing game.
[/QUOTE]
Well, i think it’s the same everywhere, to an extent.
But i’m not sure i quite understand how your numbers are working. Are you saying that you exceed the cap in some of your classes, allowing more students to enroll than the cap allows?
Anyway, for relatively small classes like this i generally order a few more books than i think i will need. For example, for the last few semesters i’ve been teaching a course that is capped at 25 students. Most semesters the course is close to full, and sometimes there are even a few extra students asking to get in. I’ll usually allow a few over the cap to enroll in the class, because i’m a nice guy. But i can’t allow too many extras, because the classroom just isn’t big enough. The most i’ve had was about 28 students.
So, for this 25-cap class, i typically order 30 copies of each book. If the class is full, and i let in a few extras, the number of books will be virtually exactly right. If only 16 people enroll (as is the case for this coming semester - yay!), then the bookstore has to send 14 copies back. As i said earlier, i don’t feel guilty about that, because the most important thing is that the students can get the books when they need them. If the bookstore staff has to pack up a few books for return, that’s life.
Also, at both of the schools where i’ve taught classes over the past few years, students usually sign up for their classes during the previous semester. By the last week of the Fall semester, i usually have a very good idea of how many students are going to be in my Spring class. For this upcoming class, i had 14 enrolled in early December. Right now, a week before the class starts, i have 16. So, six weeks ago i had a pretty accurate picture of how big the class was going to be.
Spring to Fall is less accurate, but even then most current students sign up for next Fall’s classes before leaving campus for the summer. Obviously, if you’re teaching a Freshman class in the Fall then you won’t know your numbers until much later, but in most other cases we have a pretty decent idea of how big the classes will be.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Well, i think it’s the same everywhere, to an extent.
But i’m not sure i quite understand how your numbers are working. Are you saying that you exceed the cap in some of your classes, allowing more students to enroll than the cap allows?
[/quote]
Yep. I teach in and direct a grad program. We have a lot of students who are part-time, and my course is required. If I don’t exceed the cap on occasion, some students have to wait an entire year to graduate. The only real limit is that placed on us by the fire marshal in the classroom. So I ask for a larger classroom and accommodate as many as I can. I’d rather not, but I want to help folks get out there and make some money instead of paying it to the uni…
I took over a new course this semester and it took me a while to settle on books. So my textbook order went in about two weeks before the start of course. In the future, I’ll have my order in about a month in advance… and students can seek out the books wherever they wish. I wonder if the OP’s prof was new and dealing with that hassle for the first time.
When I’m teaching a seminar I tend to be very strict about enrollment and staying at the cap - because it’s a seminar, and students don’t get their value for money if I let more in. A required course is different, because you have students that live far away and you want to accommodate them if at all possible. Especially with grad students, it’s hard to predict how many students will order online, get the book out from the library. I went to the bookstore today and one book was overflowing on the shelves, another wasn’t in yet, and the recommended text - APA 5th Style Manual - was also there in large numbers.
I think the entrepreneurial student will be able to deal with the complexities of obtaining textbooks. (Not being snarky, but there are so many ways of getting what’s needed, and stopgap solutions.)
I’m sorry to beat this horse/continue the hijack, but this drives me nuts:
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Our campus bookstore is a major national chain, and is essentially granted a monopoly over the student population.
[snip]
I realize that Microsoft dominates the market, but i’m not interested in aiding them in their virtual monopoly.
[/QUOTE]
Why bemoan the state of one monopoly and meekly accept a second? Especially when YOU have control over the second one!
One of my favorite undergrad profs was a brilliant guy, and hated the monopoly that the bookstore held over the students. He went out and surveyed five or ten small local bookstores, picked the one whose owner he felt was most deserving, and began ordering all his books there. The one he chose was actually a comic book store, but he liked their business model, and the owner worked right there in the store. They ALWAYS had his books in, they had FANTASTIC service, and they didn’t add an unconscionable markup like the campus bookstore.
PROFESSORS: You don’t HAVE to use the campus bookstore! Take some initiative and order through a Mom ‘n’ Pop local bookstore.
mhendo, I’ll help you get started: go meet the owners of these shops and see if they’re deserving of your (and your students’) business:
Atomic Books
Breathe Books
Allen’s Book Shop (416 E 31st St)
St. Beade’s Books (warning: Christian bookstore)
The Children’s Bookstore (I’m sure they’d love your business.)
(You’ll notice I’ve made some assumptions about your location. Sorry if they’re wrong.)
(Also, I preemptorily apologize if the reason you’re not doing this is because the University will fire you unless you use their bookstore. But come on. Seriously?)
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer]
One of my favorite undergrad profs was a brilliant guy, and hated the monopoly that the bookstore held over the students. He went out and surveyed five or ten small local bookstores, picked the one whose owner he felt was most deserving, and began ordering all his books there. The one he chose was actually a comic book store, but he liked their business model, and the owner worked right there in the store. They ALWAYS had his books in, they had FANTASTIC service, and they didn’t add an unconscionable markup like the campus bookstore.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds just like the Florida Bookstore Volume 2 in Gainesville, FL (home of UF).
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer]
I’m sorry to beat this horse/continue the hijack, but this drives me nuts:
Why bemoan the state of one monopoly and meekly accept a second? Especially when YOU have control over the second one!
[/QUOTE]
Um, hello? Earth to Mr. Cantbebotheredreadingthefuckingposts.
See post #23.
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer]
mhendo, I’ll help you get started: go meet the owners of these shops and see if they’re deserving of your (and your students’) business:
Atomic Books
Breathe Books
Allen’s Book Shop (416 E 31st St)
St. Beade’s Books (warning: Christian bookstore)
The Children’s Bookstore (I’m sure they’d love your business.)
(You’ll notice I’ve made some assumptions about your location. Sorry if they’re wrong.)
[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?
Did you look at the bookstores you’re talking about? Did you see what their areas of specialization are? Do you seriously want me to traipse around half of Baltimore trying to get a children’s bookstore, a Christian bookstore, a new age store, or an almost-exclusively used book store (Allen’s) to order 30 copies of The American Intellectual Tradition (5th edition), a $45 paperback that, under normal circumstances, would probably never see the inside of their premises?
Atomic Books might be a possibility. At least they stock new works on politics and history.
I also have to think about my students. Baltimore is not New York City or Chicago, where you can walk out your front door, stroll a few blocks, and grab a subway to just about any part of the city. Baltimore’s bus system is also famous for its limited routes and sporadic (to put it kindly) timetables. Quite a few of my students don’t have cars, and that is pretty much the only way to get from their campus area to some of the stores you mention. If i told my students they had to haul their asses across the city to a children’s bookstore instead of getting their books for the same price at the campus bookstore or online, they’d think i was smoking crack.
Sorry, but there’s only so much i’m willing to do in order to counter the monopoly. As i said, i always tell the students that they should shop around. I direct them to online sites other than Amazon, including sites (like abebooks.com) that serve as online agents for many small booksellers throughout the country. The Allen’s store you mention (and which is two blocks away from where i live) is part of abebooks.
If there were a regular, independent bookstore within easy reach of my students, i’d be very happy to use it. But Baltimore suffers even more severely than most large cities from a shortage of decent bookstores. While i’m not a fan of the campus bookstore monopoly, your suggested cure would be worse than the disease, or at least it would seem that way to the students.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
After I finished my BS, I assumed I would be done forever. But no, my chosen profession, librarian, has a strict Master’s Degree requirement.
[/QUOTE]
How can you have a chosen profession, go to college for a BS towards that profession, and not find out that you need a Master’s? Seriously! I don’t understand how you would not have found that out (either during the course of your studies or you on your own doing some research on how to break into being a librarian).
[QUOTE=zweisamkeit]
How can you have a chosen profession, go to college for a BS towards that profession, and not find out that you need a Master’s? Seriously! I don’t understand how you would not have found that out (either during the course of your studies or you on your own doing some research on how to break into being a librarian).
[/QUOTE]
It wasn’t my chosen profession until after I got my BS. My BS is in Information Technology and I was a freshman in 1999. Like all IT freshman in 1999, I assumed I was going to be pulling down six figures as some company’s tech guru three seconds after I graduated.
Reality had other plans for me and a lot of my classmates.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
It wasn’t my chosen profession until after I got my BS. My BS is in Information Technology and I was a freshman in 1999. Like all IT freshman in 1999, I assumed I was going to be pulling down six figures as some company’s tech guru three seconds after I graduated.
Reality had other plans for me and a lot of my classmates.
[/QUOTE]
Now thats a degree in BS.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Are you serious?
Did you look at the bookstores you’re talking about? Did you see what their areas of specialization are? Do you seriously want me to traipse around half of Baltimore trying to get a children’s bookstore, a Christian bookstore, a new age store, or an almost-exclusively used book store (Allen’s) to order 30 copies of The American Intellectual Tradition (5th edition), a $45 paperback that, under normal circumstances, would probably never see the inside of their premises?
[/quote]
Did YOU look at them? Why should you traipse around half of Baltimore? Those bookstores are all within 2000 feet of campus. And the area of specialization doesn’t matter. My professor ordered all of his books through Comix Revolution. Before he approached them, the most academic item they sold was The Road to Perdition.
Some of the bookstores in my list are actually closer to some of the dorms on campus than the monopolistic campus bookstore.
Oh? Talk is cheap.
Have you actually given this any thought? There are dozens of bookstores within one mile of campus. Dozens. (I’ve never been to that part of Baltimore, but just doing a business search on Google maps for “books” around Johns Hopkins returns around 25 stores that are within a mile, and HUNDREDS within reasonable walking distance.)
I don’t see why. Because you’re too lazy to look around? When my professor told us we’d be going to Comix Revolution for our books, we were thrilled. We didn’t like supporting the monopoly any more than you do, and probably less. We thought that the professor’s book policy was absolutely the greatest thing since ramen.
An independent bookseller is closer, cheaper, more likely to keep your book in stock, has better service, supports the local economy, fights monopolies, has less red tape, will make you a hero for your students, and will prevent war. There is no downside except that the professor has to take some INITIATIVE.
(To Justin_Bailey: sorry for the continued hijack, but if we can win over enough professors, everyone benefits, yeah?)
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer]
Some of the bookstores in my list are actually closer to some of the dorms on campus than the monopolistic campus bookstore.
[/quote]
No, there is not a single bookstore that is closer to campus than the college bookstore. You do not know what you’re talking about.
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer]
Oh? Talk is cheap.Have you actually given this any thought? There are dozens of bookstores within one mile of campus. Dozens. (I’ve never been to that part of Baltimore, but just doing a business search on Google maps for “books” around Johns Hopkins returns around 25 stores that are within a mile, and HUNDREDS within reasonable walking distance.)
[/quote]
All you display here is your ignorance. I, too, went to Google maps, and searched for “books” near Johns Hopkins. Here’s what is around the campus:
A. St. Bede’s Books: It’s an Episcopal church. The bookstore is tiny, and carries religious and some ecumenical texts. It has short hours, and is not open at all on Mondays.
B. Barnes and Noble Booksellers: that’s the campus store.
C. Atomic Books: discussed above as a possibility.
D. Breathe Books: a new age store.
E. Basu Network: a private house, not a bookstore. Presumably a home business that is book-related in some way.
F. Salamander Books: used books only.
G. Normal’s Books and Records: used books only.
H. Allen’s Book Shop: discussed above. Used books.
I. Edgar L. Feingold and Associates: a Business Consulting, Management Consulting, and Marketing firm.
J. Kelmscott Bookshop: rare and antiquarian books. I’ve walked past that store hundreds of times in my years in Baltimore, at all hours of the day. It’s been open on exactly two occasions. I once talked to the owner, who told me that most of their business is done by appointment.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
I guess I misspoke (er… typed), it’s only available on the Amazon Marketplace. And I know how Amazon Marketplace sellers work. No amount of money would guarantee that I would get the book before the 2nd class. The only to do that was (I thought) to go to the bookstore.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, yes. That’s different. Amazon marketplace is basically useless.
Have you tried powells.com? They’re an independent bookseller in the Portland Area, with lots of used books, and I’ve had good experiences with them.
mhendo, sorry for the snark about Amazon; I just find it odd that students haven’t more fully embraced internet commerce by now. When I was in school just a few years ago, I could save $100 a semester or so by ordering books online and just using the reserve copy in the library for the first week or two until mine arrived. $100 buys a lot of the sort of beer people are willing to drink in college.