I suspect that anyone who holds up Canon in D as a model of artistic perfection has much that is interesting or original to say about, well, anything at all.
I love music. I have been a musician for many years. I have had no shortage of exposure to Radiohead, as my brother is a big fan. He saw them last week in New Jersey, and has seen them thrice before. I hear it playing around the house, I hear it in the car. And for the life of me, I cannot force myself to appreciate it on the mystic level that those who enjoy it appear to be capable of. It’s ok, I suppose, but as others have said, I don’t get it.
I would be happy to talk about the beauty and complexity of, say, Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto no. 2, Foetus’ <i>Flow</i>, or Blue Planet Corporation’s <i>Crystal</i>.
Of course, after my previous comments about each to their own, there are some points that are really stupid. Such as the above.
Fair nuff, you don’t like radiohead. Do you have to then throw in stupid insults about a well respected band, who a lot of people are fond of? You somehow think that these comments add value to your opinion?
And if I may add one other point, things that really piss me off number…oh shit, I lose count
Yes, yes, very good. Why do you add this these two statements? You somehow think that most people don’t love music? You somehow think being a musician is a rare thing, or one that makes your opinion more valid. Why do people add this sort of poo before making a critical review of a band or song?
Yes, I love music. Yes, I’m a musician. Why does that make my opinion any more or less valid than someone who likes music quite a lot, but hasn’t played an instrument? My wife has played piano for longer than me - does that mean her taste in music is somehow more valid than mine? But I own more cd’s - what if I love music more, but she’s been a musician longer. Then who wins?
Gary: I’m quite fond of “We Suck Young Blood” from a purely artistic sense but I find that it’s the only track on the CD I ever skip. I love how all the pieces of the song work together to create a mood (the creepy handclaps, especially, are an inspired bit of work), but I don’t find myself in that particular vampiric mood very often.
It doesn’t make my opinion any more or less valid, Gary]. I didn’t mean to set off one of your pet peeves. I never said I was a good or learned musician. The only point I was trying to make is that I am not entirely an ignorant idiot with respect to musical issues. The odds are decent that I dislike a band not because I am too ignorant to appreciate it, but because I just don’t really like it.
That’s all. I didn’t think I had implied anything more. Why so sensitive?
Individual opinions on art are certainly 100% subjective, but to deny that there can be an objective evaluation of art at all is ludicrous. There are all sorts of objective criteria for determining how much skill was involved in the writing or performance of a particular song- for example, a song like Radiohead’s “Let Down,” with two guitars playing in different time signatures simultaneously, requires more musical talent to perform than a song like Nickelback’s “How You Remind Me,” which is standard pop-song 4/4 all the way through its blueprint verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure.
is somehow better? “Only a philistine could dislike this happenin’ blend of whining and music! Thou shalt not speak poorly of The Most Important Band Ever!”
People can be fond of whatever they want. Good for them. But Radiohead has sold countless piles of albums, and they’re as much a valid target for criticism as John Mayer, Britney Spears, or Metallica.
If we can’t call Britney a played out cookie-cutter pop princess, or John Mayer a sappy Kenny Loggins wannabe, or Metallica a lazy bunch of sellouts, or Radiohead a whiny troupe whose music perfectly highlights the difference between skill and talent, in the fucking Pit of all places, then the terrorists have already won!
I think you and I are talking about different definitions of “quality” here. Your definition (if I’m reading you correctly) is based on individual personal opinion of a work of art, which I agree is entirely subjective. However, I think the actual quality of a work of art goes deeper than that, bceause the word “quality” necessarily implies that some things can be of higher quality than others. Without some sort of objective standard, then, quality loses all meaning (otherwise, one could claim that Christina Aguilera’s “Dirrty” is of higher “quality” as Beethoven’s 5th if one “likes” it more). Complexity and difficulty are just two of an vast array of this objective criteria that can be used to criticize music, and are hardly the most important- I just mentioned them because they tend to be germane to “Radiohead rocks/sucks” debates.
I think it’s quite possible to seperate personal preference and understanding of artistic quality. I myself readily acknowledge that the punk bands I listen to are, for the most part, completely inept musicians, but that doesn’t stop me from liking them more than Pink Floyd. Likewise, I think it should be possible to acknowledge that Radiohead are very accomplished musicians even if you can’t stand Thom Yorke’s caterwauling.
Erm. When did ANYONE here say that Radiohead were the “most important band ever”? Far as I can tell, nobody was even talking about how good they were before you started inserting your snarky comments into the discussion.
No kidding. Nobody has said otherwise. I think you may have just run into one too many Radiohead fanatics in your time and have developed a knee-jerk reaction to the word “Radiohead.”
Sorry for the third post in a row, but my first post (“I think you and I are talking about different definitions…”) was directed at Revtim, not Mr2001.
You mean like, 1st guitar strumming, and 2nd picking right?
UNLESS, you have seen this song played live, and 2 of them are picking wildly. Just, uh clarify that for me. Becuase I like to play that song on my guitar, and I can do all the picking on my own.
I’ve seen a live video, yeah. Most of the song, both guitars are playing together, but during the instrumental bridge and final chorus, Jonny Greenwood often breaks off from the rest of the band and “picks wildly,” as you put it. It may actually be in the album cut, quieter in the mix, although I don’t have my copy with me at the moment so I can’t check. Get any live bootleg (preferably a video) and you can definitely hear/see the difference, though.
I frequent quite a few different forums and if there is one constant amongst all of them is that they all have Radiohead fans and for the most part these fans are completely incapable of accepting criticism of Radiohead.
I used to like Radiohead. Pablo Honey was good, The Bends was phenomenal, but OK Computer just didn’t float my boat. The occasional good track doesn’t make up it being mainly, for me, painfully boring. Kid A and Amnesiac are, IMHO, absolutely dreadful. I won’t even bother giving Hail to the Thief a listen.
Don’t get me wrong, I have been known to listen to some “difficult” music (for example: GYBE, Labradford, Mogwai are all there in my collection and the American Analog Set, from whom my username is stolen, have been known to get out there experimentally) but I just cannot enjoy Kid A and Amnesiac.
I then come here and see things like “But to disrespect The Bends and OKComputer is like listening to Requiem or Canon in D and saying “fuck that booyah, it goes over my head”. For a start, it’s not that complex, for another thing: it’s totally sweet.” and I see that my experience of Radiohead fans can be foudn here as well.
IMHO the love of music is purely down to opinion. Once you start trying to “prove” music is of a high quality (see: “for example, a song like Radiohead’s “Let Down,” with two guitars playing in different time signatures simultaneously, requires more musical talent to perform than a song like Nickelback’s “How You Remind Me,” which is standard pop-song 4/4 all the way through its blueprint verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure.”) you are no better than a Hi-fi nut who listens more to his Hi-fi than the actual music coming out of it. It is like guitar “greats” like Joe Satriani; He can play amazingly fast and do all sorts of weird shit, but I hate his music. His talent at playing his instrument doesn’t automatically mean the music is good in the same way that my inability to enjoy his music doesn’t automatically mean it is bad.
Stating musical opinion as fact is no different to December’s tired expressing opinion blog pieces as fact. All IMHO, of course.
Tarrsk, I get that you’re talking about technical expertise (objectively quantifiable), not artistic merit (entirely subjective).
I am a huge Radiohead fan - seen them three times, and have tickets to see them again in December - but I can quite understand people disliking them. As I said, it’s entirely subjective.
jjimm, yes, that’s it exactly. If I gave the impression that I actually have problems with people who dislike Radiohead, I apologize.
amanset, did you actually read my third post? Because it seems to me like you saw my (initial, and marginal) agreement with j_kat and automatically assumed that our arguments were one and the same. Let me say it straight out: I agree with j_kat that music has some quantifiable aspects. I do not agree with j_kat that The Bends and OK Computerare impossible to dislike. Did I make myself clear enough now?
Hell, it seems to me that we are actually making the exact same point (although I, at least, made an effort to rein my temper in). I noted that there is a vast difference between (in jjimm’s words) technical expertise and actual artistic merit, that the former can be but is not necessarily always part of the latter. Nowhere did I say that “Let Down” is BETTER than “How You Remind Me,” because that WOULD be a subjective opinion. I only noted that it requires more skill to perform, which is a simple statement of fact. If you cannot distinguish between the two statements, I suggest you re-read the part of your own post that goes “talent at playing his instrument doesn’t automatically mean the music is good in the same way that my inability to enjoy his music doesn’t automatically mean it is bad.”
