Animals can’t be moral or immoral. Morality is a human invention.
I disagree–I think the hamsters who destroyed the OP were behaving in an *extremely * immoral fashion, and I expect them to burn in Hell forever for it.
So…your cat’s breath doesn’t smell like cat food?
Last night upon coming home, I noticed my bedroom floor had “signs of violence,” as the detectives might say, so I figured “Oh, my cat’s got a mouse for me again.”
Uh nuh. Try a ten inch long woodpecker. Beautiful, too. Variegated stripes on the belly, little tufts of hair on the crown and a stippled beak. I was aghast, but should I have been?
The perpetrator, Merengue is 16 pounds, about 2 feet long. He has his claws, as he is an outdoor cat, but it spayed. He’s extremely well trained, part dog – or I have more cat-training ability than the average – he can sit, lie down, shake, knows which couch is his, knows not to knock over the plants, and can attack on command. (Like Merengue! Get the moth! Get him!)
Usually he attacks moths, flies, the like. He’s a natural mouser, that’s how I got him – from a factory in Brooklyn where his job was to catch rats. Mice represent no problem; even with a bell on, when he was young, he’d catch a sparrow or two; but lately he’s been moving up! What’s next, a hawk? An owl?
Should I be feeling bad about this at all or am I silly?
I could certainly train him not to attack birds, but I feel this would make him less happy … maybe that it would be a violation of cat-morality … is there such a thing?
Okay, this sounds strange, but I wanted him to be as actualized a cat as possible; I agonized over spaying him, but decided it would be wrong to perhaps have kittens that no one cared for. I didn’t declaw him, as I wanted him to be a strong, proud cat – maybe he’s too strong now? Oy!
Is it wrong for a cat to catch and kill birds?
Is it wrong to not train a cat to not catch and kill birds?
He didn’t eat the bird, just killed it and dragged it to his dinner plate. I reward kills with food. Should I – Is that wrong? He’s very happy after a kill, lies down with everybody and won’t stop purring. Should I make him eat the bird? Chop it up into little parts?
Right now, there’s a beautiful, though very dead woodpecker in my compost heap; I feel a little conflicted about it, and I hope y’all can help; I saw the recent thread and didn’t see my answers …
It isn’t wrong for the cat. That is what cats do. But, if it is possible to convince him to stop then you should.
In many areas cats are causing a decline in the population of song birds.
Lots of things come to mind here, not the least of which is the immorality of having people answer a post before it even appears.
You shouldn’t put meat in a compost heap. Other things will come for it and wind up pooping in the compost.
You wanted to “actualize” your cat? Geez, next you’ll be working on his self-esteem.
Hey, you trained him to attack flying things, and now he’s at fault?
Cats have no morality, good or bad. They are independent of morals (with the possible exception of Maine Coons). Dogs, on the other hand, have an ethical code and know right from wrong, not that they have the self-discipline to follow the code.
Hannibal Lecter also felt really good after a kill.
Morality is a human quality not a feline one.
It is immoral for you to attempt to impose your morality onto a cat.
The concept of a “fully actualized cat” is also silly. Cats are domesticated animals. They are no longer wild animals. They exist for the duel purpose of their mousing abilities, and for the comfort they provide you as pets.
In other words, your cat is fully actualized if it makes you happy.
The Tao of catness is that you are supposed to be happy by spending all the time and effort to make your cat happy. In the simple tasks of caring for your pet you gain fulfillment, and you get the added bonus of a mouseless house.
Morally the cat is ok.
You on the other hand are suffering from a dual moral failure in regards to your cat.
First, it is immoral of you to attempt to impose your morality onto your cat. It doesn’t need your morality any more than it needs to be dressed up in a tuxedo, and both ideas are equally silly.
If you feel bad about this failure, you have screwed up again. That would mean you were not happy and were further deactualizing your cat (since it’s purpose is to make you happy.)
The second failure stems off the first. Your cat is not subject to morality. You are. You are responsible for your cat’s actions. The death of the woodpecker was caused by your failure to control your cat, which was your moral imperative as a cat owner.
If you want to ensure that your cat ownership is completely ethical, you probably should not let it be an outside cat.
Outside cats can be nuisances to neighbors, will fight, and kill, are prone to disease and injury, and may turn into street pizza.
Neutering your cat was a good ethical choice.
Doubtless, it remains an outside cat as a compromise between your ethic of responsible ownership and your wish to allow the cat to roam and hunt and be happy.
The only way to completely solve this dilemma, fully actualize your cat, maintain responsible ownership, and protect your local wildlife is to build a cat run.
A cat run is like a Habitrail for cats. Using wood and chicken wire, build an enclosure for the cat including clever trails leading outside and around and up trees and through bushes and stuff.
Your cat won’t get hit by a car. It won’t get into a fight. It won’t kill other animals. Nevertheless it will be able to roam and hunt, excercise and explore. It just won’t be able to get at the creatures it stalks. You will need to add on and change it as time goes by to keep your cat interested. I also recommend placing bird feeders in strategic locations so your cat can enjoy itself by stalking them (while being unable to kill them.)
At this point you may consider that this is a huge pain in the ass to construct for what is really just a stupid cat, and I would agree wholeheartedly.
Nevertheless, you asked. There’s your solution.
Scylla is right- you are the one who erred by letting your cat out in the first place.
Cats are perfectly happy inside. A cat run is a nice touch, but hardly nessesary. My cats have something like it, where the only thing they get to “kill” is an occ bug. They are very content & happy.
If you really love you cat- you will make it an inside only cat- such felines live twice as long.
Outside cats- and especially “feral” cats are a scourge on the environment. If they only lived on what they killed, their population would soon balance itself with the prey- but since they hunt more for sport- such felines kill more than “circle of life” type predators.
(Of course farm cats are to be outside cats, but they are more workers than pets)
Dogs (and people) are social animals. They evolved to live in packs. They have an innate understanding that harming others will come back to haunt you. Cats were never herd animals. Therefore, cats are sociopaths, and amoral. (Paraphrased from The Wizardry Consulted, Rick Cook)
Dogs (and people) are social animals. They evolved to live in packs. They have an innate understanding that harming others will come back to haunt you. Cats were never herd animals. Therefore, cats are sociopaths, and amoral. (Paraphrased from The Wizardry Consulted, Rick Cook)
Hello, Clarrrrrrrrice…
I love cats, myself, including all the predator stuff. I wasn’t thrilled at the mess of a dismembered pigeon, but I wouldn’t have punished my cats for trying, just encouraged them to keep it outside.
:eek: I say we burn the cat at the stake. I’ll round up my “fundies” and we’ll have a cat burning ceremony. Damn rabid cats. 
Just kidding…I
It’s what cats do. Leave the poor kitty alone. He/she sounded so proud.
It’s a he. “Merengue” was very proud.
Personally, I’m think keeping cats inside, while not immoral, is cat-immoral; if I were a cat, who, when wild, would roam miles of area, I would be pretty upset to be trapped in a NY apartment.
In fact, I might try to plan a daring escape out the opened front door, and get lost, and since I have no claws, no street sense, and no clue, get turned into a doggy chew toy.
Isn’t that just as immoral? My cat will never be lost; isn’t much afraid of dogs; and is being trained that the street should never be crossed, is much less likely to become cat-pancake.
Further, if he’s pissed at the way I’m treating him, he can bloody well run away, can’t he? I’m not holding him in my house, or pretending he’s an outdoor cat with the Habitrails. It’s an idea I like, but for Merengue it would be the equivalent of the rec room at Rikers. Just a tease.
Similarly, what’s all this about cats being perfectly happy trapped inside? What about the grossly overweight furballs? The ones that fight with each other? The midnight running around? The scratching of furniture? All emblematic of deep seated unhappiness, IMHO. Sure, they seem plenty happy when you give them food and water, and a little company. That happens when people are trapped and dependent on others, too, and we have a name for it: Stockholm Syndrome.
It’s just a cat.
Meaning that, as far as anyone can tell, the animal is simply following a stimulus response pattern. Its muscles and little cat brain succeeded in following their genetic programming, which is to kill birds. Response? Purring, lowered heart rate, whatever. Likewise, being confined in an apartment, contrary to the genetic programming that tells the organism to run around all over the place, is another type of stimulus. Response? Clawing furniture, pissing on the rug, whatever. As far as anyone can tell, the animal isn’t capable of emotions (pissed? upset? proud? teased? Nonsense!) much less “morality”.
Ace, I agree mostly with Scylla: it’s unethical to let a hunting cat stay outside. It’s not your cat who killed the woodpecker: it’s you who killed the woodpecker.
I have two indoor cats, and they’re perfectly happy beasts, who chase each other around, trot after me as I wander the house, sleep in puddles of sunshine, chase moths that get inside. They have their claws, of course – declawing a cat is a terrible procedure, which I’d never do. I do clip their claws about once or twice a month, usually after they’ve scratched me inadvertantly.
Teach Merengue to be an indoor cat. He’ll be safer for it, and the other woodpeckers will be happier for it. None of this weird cat-actualization: sterilized indoor cats are every bit as “actualized” as fertile outdoor cats, except that they’re also healthier and less of a threat to wildlife.
the American Humane Association and the Humane Society of the United States both agree with me on this issue, FWIW.
Daniel
Nonsense, yourself, Doghouse Reily. Not only does that go against all research, it goes against all common sense and all anecdotal data.
Have you had a pet? Do your plants die? Did you know that they grow better if you water them at the same time each day – and they enjoy music and breezes?
We are all stimulus/response creatures, yet we all have discernable emotions, yet to follow your argument, “as far as you can tell” no one other than yourself has “emotions.” Rather Philosophy 101, I’d say
Other people can be immoral; domesticated animals can be immoral; but wait, there’s more! Any animal researcher can tell you immoral actions of a sort can be found in the wild!
I disagree. Cats and other mammals have lots of neurological similarities to humans, and they display similar reactions to similar stimuli. Sneak up behind a cat and shout, “Boo!”, and it’ll leap straight in the air and whip its head around, just as a person would do – both of them are startled. Chase after a cat with arms raised in the air, and it’ll widen its eyes and run away, just as a small child will do – both of them are scared. Stroke a cat and cuddle it, and if it knows you and trusts you, it’ll purr and close its eyes, while a child will smile and close its eyes – both of them are happy.
If cats aren’t capable of emotions, it’s only logical to conclude that humans aren’t capable of emotions either. As I recall, Descartes, in proving that animals couldn’t feel emotions (but people can), had to resort to the “divine occasion” device in order to make his proof consistent: that is, he posited that every time you willed yourself to get out of bed, God used this as an occasion to get your body out of bed. Without a divine occasion device, it’s very difficult to suggest that there’s this qualitative difference between humans and other mammals.
Daniel
To begin with, what Scylla said was decidedly bizzare. How can one be responsible for another’s immoral actions without the ability to teach anything to that other being – by hermetically sealing off the beast? One might as well say I’m exceptionally moral because I’m a hermit and never steal from anyone.
What Scylla did was to stretch the definition of a prison warden to include morality. It doesn’t – I’m responsible if a prisoner escapes, I’m not immoral. Rather a gross conflation.
Why is it a terrible procedure? For you? Or do cats indeed have emotions and feelings?
Secondly, my cat never scratches me inadvertantly. Hmm.
Merengue could no more be taught to be an indoor cat than I could be taught to be a prisoner. Would you rather live 100 years in bondage or 50 years free? If you gave your cat that option which would he take? He’s happy being what he is, an indoor cat that spends the days outdoors menacing the wildlife, as is his wont. He has his shots, he’s not fertile – how many years of his life is he actually trading in for this? He loves to be outside and menace nature, and complains when I don’t let him out by 8 am. We all menace nature, and vice-versa, that’s what makes us enjoy life so much. It’s the same reason people jump out of airplanes; swim with sharks; or any number of risk-taking activities. WE GET MORE OUT OF LIFE. Why shouldn’t he?
I’m just worried he’s getting too good at it. I’d hate to have owl for dinner.
INWM; their agenda is to limit the amount of wild cats and kittens and lessen the overflow in the pounds. Not particularly relevant, IMHO.
Woodpeckers are only a few random mutations and evolutionary leaps from acquiring poisonous fangs and armour piercing beaks and thus represent a clear and present danger to the health and well being of freedom loving felines everywhere. Your cat simply had to act.