My Problem with Affirmative Action

Alice is black and was born in the ghetto. She gets a lift up and does well for herself. Great. Her son Bob isn’t born in a bad part of the city and he gets a lift up and is able to afford a home in the 'burbs. His daughter Carol is born into a prosperous enviroment and she gets a lift up…

Meanwhile, there are still people living in the ghetto.
I understand that AA is intended to address the discrimination faced by blacks of all economic levels but it seems to me that helping people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder should take priority. Giving the poor a lift up would certainly help blacks as a higher percentage of them compared to whites live in poverty.

Is it naive of me to think that the ghetto isn’t just a result but also reinforces the problem?
If it’s poverty and violence weren’t so stongly associated with “Black America” then this would eliminate a rascist justification for the belief that some people are naturally inferior.

Well, to begin with, your scenario has already helped three generations of adults and AA is barely 30 years old. Could your third generation get a hand up that may not be needed? Possibly. Or, since discrimination does continue, they may simply have a better chance of siezing the opportunity for which they have already worked.

Making sure we forbid quotas, the effect of AA is to create enough of a visible black (woman, other minority) professional/trade class that future generations will be less likely to be barred entry to the work force, regardless of their physical features. This will help the underclass by removing one obvious de facto barrier for them to succeed.

Will this heal all wounds? Make everyone successful? Eliminate poverty?

No.

However, AA is aimed at one of many barriers to success for people in this country. Not every problem is based in race or ethnicity or sex. Each specific problem probably needs to be addressed at its own level.

All I know of AA is that everyone wants black or hispanic women. Because none of them are interested in computers the few who are make alot more money than their counterparts.

I agree. It divides based on the color of your skin instead of good reasons like economic poverty or discrimination.

Let’s start with the original meaning of “Affirmative Action.” Know how the federal government likes to make up long, complicated phrases to describe simple things? Like when an Army requisition describes a hammer as “a metallic fastening implementation device”? Well, “Affirmative Action” is just another complicated way of saying something simple. It means “DO SOMETHING!”

Now, forget about the specifics of any affirmative action program you know about or have heard about. Just start from scratch.

Can we all agree that, in the past, there has been racism and discimination that prevented blacks from getting good jobs, from getting into good schools, etc.? I expect even an average Klansman would say “yes.”

Okay, then, can we all agree that it would be nice IF people of all races, creeds and colors lived, worked and studied side by side?

Again, MOST people of most political persuasions would say “sure.”

Well then… DO SOMETHING! That’s what affirmative action originally meant. DO SOMETHING to make that sort of integration a bit more of a reality.

What does that “something” mean? Ah, THERE’S where we get into a LOT of arguments. But suppose we start small. IF a major employer in New York City was looking to hire a large number of people, and he chose to place large, prominent want ads in the Amsterdam News, as well as the New York Times, would THAT constitute “affirmative action” of a sort? Sure. Would THAT type of recruitment bother most white people? I doubt it.

Now, let’s move up a bit. Let’s not worry YET about the lowering of standards and qualifications (I WILL address that later). Let’s say that, right now, 17 year olds from all over America are applying to be in the Harvard class of 2005. (Up front, I concede I have no idea what the REAL numbers are, so I’m making them up!) Let’s say there are openings for 1000 freshmen at Harvard this fall. And, since that’s such a desirable place to go to college, let’s say that 7500 kids from all over America apply to get in.

Well, right off the bat, the admissions office may conclude that 1000 of those kids just don’t have high enough grades or test scores. And 500 of those kids are so brilliant, so accomplished, and so highly recommended, they can’t be kept out. That leaves 500 vacant seats and 6000 kids who ALL have straight A transcripts, 1400 SATs, and solid letters of recommendation. ANY way you slice it, no matter what method you use to choose the 500 lucky finalists… 5500 perfectly nice, perfectly qualified applicants are going to get screwed.

Under the circumstances, if you have a pool of more-or-less equally qualified applicants, is it so awful to give a preference to one because he’s black, or because she’s Mexican-American? Probably not. I mean, is losing your spot in Harvard THAT way any less hurtful than if the Deans pulled names out of a hat, or went “eeny meeny miney mo?”

And, let’s face it, MOST hiring/admission situations tend to work that way. Look at your own life and your own experiences at school and at work. I’m SURE you’re perfectly well qualified for the job you have, just as I am for the job I have. But if you and I didn’t exist, would our jobs have gone unfilled? I doubt it! Fact is, MOST of the time, there are a number of applicants for a job, each of whom could probably do it about as well as the others. And if I hadn’t been accepted at the Ivy League University I went to… or if I’d chosen to go elsewhere… would my place have gone unfilled? Of course not- there were plenty of other applicants on the waiting list who’d have gladly taken my place, and probably would have done about as well academically.

I point this out only to show that “qualifications,” as important as they are, aren’t always as cut-and-dried as the die-hard opponents of affirmative action sometimes seem to think. There’s RARELY one and only one qualified applicant for a job. As I said earlier, IF there are multiple qualified applicants, SOME nice, capable person is going to get screwed no matter how the decision is made. So, since there’s no way to make EVERYBODY happy, is it worse to pick the qualified black candidate over the qualified white candidate? I can’t get too outraged over that.

So, where DO I get outraged? When standards are simply watered down. And make no mistake about it, they often are, especially at colleges. When an admissions program sets aside a percentage of places for various ethnic groups, and then compares applicants solely to other members of the same ethnic group, I’m outraged.

Suppose I went to the Dean of Admissions at one of America’s ELITE colleges and asked, “I have a 17 year old friend who has a B+ average, and an 1180 on his SATs. DO you think he’d be accepted?” I’d all but guarantee the Dean would answer, “That depends. What race is he?”

A B+ average and an 1180 SAT score is quite good, but it’s not good enough to get most kids into an elite college. If the kid is Chinese, there is absolutely no chance he’d be accepted. If he’s white, it’s highly unlikely. But if he’s black… the reality is, he’d be accepted. And THAT’s the point at which I’d protest against affirmative action.

If a prestigious university wants to send out recuiters to inner city high schools, that’s fine. If they want to sponsor tutoring sessions or SAT preparation classes at predominantly minority high schools, I’d say “swell.” If they want to give race SOME consideration, when choosing from a pool of (roughly) equally qualified applicants, no problem (I thought the Bakke decision was reasonable).

Only when “affirmative action” comes to mean “watering down the standards” do I have a real problem. There are numerous ways to “do something” without doing that.

Wow, Astorian; good analysis!

You’re not alone in thinking this way. An interesting thought comes from Dinesh D’Souza :

I wouldn’t call myself a big fan of D’Souza, but the idea is pretty interesting. How would you implement it? I don’t know, but I’m not a college admissions person.

I’m sure it could be implemented - simply figure out a person’s socio-economic background, and interpret their high school performance in light of this. If somebody struggled through underfunded schools, living in foster homes, getting taught by too few teachers with too many students competing for their attention, and got a 1200 on their SATs, that might be worth more than somebody else who yawned through some prep school where everyone told him he was destined to succeed, and ended up with a 1250 on his SATs.

Anyway, I’m going to withhold judgement on this idea, since I don’t really know enough about it (and since I’m kind of wary of a fellow who entitles a book The End of Racism with a straight face).

Some colleges are doing what you describe, Boris–when applying to law school, I found that several applications said the schools encouraged diversity from (among other things) socio-economic backgrounds. You could even write a separate short paper about the way in which your background was diverse, for their consideration.

It’s an interesting idea, implemented in place of race-based initiatives (in this one area only, obviously; other forms of affirmative action couldn’t be as easily translated), but like you I’m leery of allying myself with anything Dinesh D’Souza says. The man, in my opinion, is well at the fringe of modern socio-political thought.

2sense, I agree with the bulk of your OP, but like Tom I don’t think your concerns are necessarily consonant with opposition to affirmative action–unless, that is, if affirmative action were the only way in which we could choose to alleviate poverty and lessen the correlation between income and ethnicity. Clearly, though, it’s not. We can revitalize the urban infrastructure, improve schools nationwide, extend microcredit loans, and pursue affirmative action, all at the same time. That we don’t do this as much as you or I would like says something only about the different priorities such programs take on the national level, not their mutual incompatibility with existing affirmative action measures.

Sigh. Asmodean, I the Technologist for the Baltimore office of an international law firm. I’m a Black woman. I’m 26 and I’ve been interested in computers since I was 13 and have been in the field since I was 19. Why would you say that no Black or Hispanic women are interested in computers?

I command a very good salary. I make more money than three of my White male counterparts. When it’s time for salary negotiations, I know what I’m worth based on what I bring to the table: I’m damned good at what I do. I don’t take a penny less than what I know I’m worth.

You then go on to assert that Affirmative Action divides based on the color of your skin. True, AA does try to level the playing field for non-Whites. But you seem to either not know or forget that AA also tries to level the playing field for White women and disabled persons of all races (including White males).

Hi Juanita…I’ve been avoiding these threads ever since the pit. It just amazes me. I really don’t think there is any kind of logical reply that will make a difference with these people who are vehemently opposed to AA. The deceptions about AA somehow speak to something so basic in them that it cannot be shaken. You’ve gotta admit they are every bit as dogged about their beliefs as those of us who believe the ideology behind AA iniciatives is worthy of carrying through. I’m not sure what it is that blinds them to the reality of “white priviledge” or how it continues to effect our society in adverse ways. I’ve left this subject alone because it angers me when I must answer to accusations that I am really a bigot because I think black people can’t succeed without the help of white people. Putting words in my mouth for sure. Which is assuming that I support AA out of some “Massa/Slave” benevolent benefactor thing. Talk about bigotry. I can’t be white and support AA without some sick underlying superiority thing. Man people can really come up with some shit can’t they? I don’t support AA just because it benefits people of color, I’m a woman, who raises a daughter, and WE (women I mean) have a vested interest in maintaining the strides toward equality that women have gained. So my motives are not purely unselfish, I’m part of the “protected class” myself. So I’ve stayed out of this argument for awhile. Surely there is nothing any of these people can say that will make me believe that AA was/is not necessary and benefical to our society other than the fact that it pisses off so many white people. And that is where I see it has become a detriment to itself, perhaps it is time to consider giving it up. Maybe we should let it’s detractors have the opportunity to put their money where their mouths have been. Looks like we might get an opportunity to do just that. We do have a White House full of people who do not support AA, and half of our Senate. It just might come to pass that things will change for AA. I just do hope that the ground we have gained toward equality for all Americans has taken firm enough hold in our society that we don’t have to start all over again.

Needs2know

If AA had held to the earliest efforts of inclusion from the very beginning, I think your rather broad attack on opponents of AA would be better justified.

However, we did go through a period in the 70s when quotas were imposed (by the courts, not by legislation), on a number of specific cases. (Most of those cases involved civil service employment, where minorities made up a substantial population of the people served, but had been barred from joining the ranks of those who had provided the service.) The reality was that in several of those cases, in order to meet quotas, entrance standards were lowered. This was not always a bad thing: in many cases the disparity between majority and minority employees was staggeringly huge and a number of the “qualifications” actually turned out to be irrelevant to the performance of the job. Under the pressure of rectifying the general injustice in as few years as possible, the quota system was an unfortunate, but perhaps necessary, temporary solution.

Unfortunately, the perception was lodged in the minds of many that AA was exactly equal to quotas. To compound that, there were a few cases where the original qualifications did have a useful function. (The old, timeworn “example” has generally been the changes to firefighter qualifications regarding the ability to move a load. I don’t want to be found unconscious in a burning house by some firefighter who can only haul 125 pounds when I weigh twice that. On the other hand, some of those qualifications were bogus–demanding that a weight be carried in a specific way that favored men balanced at their broad shoulders where a woman could carry an equal weight if carried differently to suit her balance at the hips.)

On top of that, various Personnel Departments throughout the country have imposed silly rules on their own hiring managers, partly out of stupidity and partly out of a fear of capricious EEOC auditors. (And some EEOC auditors have been capricious.)

It is not fair to accuse every person who has encountered some of the stupider applications of AA (either in person or through FOAF stories) of being bigoted or even truculent. In the ways of humans everywhere, a lot of good and a bit of bad has been carried out in the name of AA.

Needs2Know, I’ve successfully avoided this thread until recently. There’s another thread about how AA hurts race relations. There’s also another one titled Should White People Feel Guilty - I’ve been refusing to open that one.

There are some people who understand the playing field is not level. Then there are others who think it is level. Then there are those who recognise the field is not level but feel nothing should be done about it. It’s very frustrating when people make it a Black and White thing only. These people, in my opinion, are myopic, at best. They chose only to focus on on aspect of AA and ignore that White males and White women benefit from AA.

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! YOU JUST PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AGAIN! WHERE IN MY POST ANYWHERE DID YOU SEE ME CALL ANYONE A BIGOT? HUH! COME ON! WHERE!?

How was anything I just said worthy of that long tirade on government quotas etc.? This is why I have decided to keep my mouth shut on this subject.

Oh and by the way…the government wasn’t very good it’s own damned self at meeting it’s “quotas”. When I was an EEO counselor for a government procurement installation in the early 80’s women and minorities were still grossly underrepresented in management and technical positions even though many HIGHLY QUALIFIED people were available. If you need a personal story that is actually based on experience instead of hypothetical situations and hearsay then I can provide one. I have seen a black woman who was the HIGHEST QUALIFIED on the merit promotion register get passed up for a GS-11 in a Tech position not once but 3 times. (And only then got the next one around because I was snooping around and they knew it) I had looked at the figures for these positions and seen the underrepresentation even though a pool of HIGHLY QUALIFIED applicants was full of women and people of color. Quotas were necessary and government supervisors should have been held accountable for being sensitive to EEO iniciatives. No changes would have been made at all unless PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS were made aware and accountable for the barriers they were erecting. If EEO iniciatives had not been included as a rate-able point on supervisory performance apprasials many things would not have changed. And the sad fact is that it did and when it did the white people and the men did exactly as we are hearing now they attributed it all to hand outs. I can guarantee you that the woman I helped get her promotion DESERVED that job, she did not deserve to get it and then be made to feel unworthy anyway. I’m am done with this subject.

Needs2know

Calm down. I was not accusing you of throwing the epithet “bigot” at anyone (although your longer quote, above, implies one adequate definition of bigotry). My point was that your opening remark,

and the post that followed was too broadly painted for a reasonable discussion. There are, indeed, people who will simply not look at the evidence, having made up their minds in advance that AA is simply discrimination in the other direction.

There are others, however, who come to the discussion with the view that AA is discriminatory, but are open enough to consider the evidence. A broad-brush post that seems to accuse nearly every opponent of AA of closed-mindedness does nothing to change the views of the second group.

I am a long-time proponent of AA, but trying to describe every action and policy that has been undertaken in the name of AA as wholly justified is self-defeating, because there are folks out there who have been unfairly stung by badly handled AA policies. If you want to build the support you will need to continue valid AA policies in the face of Reagan II, you are going to need to be able to separate the valid practices of AA from the unfair or stupidly enacted practices associated with some applications of AA. Angry declarations do not provide the evidence you need to persuade those who are mildly opposed to AA to reconsider their positions.

In the examples you provided in the second post, quotas were still not necessary. If the top qualified candidate is passed over three times, one does not need a quota to see that an injustice is being done; simply looking at the facts with no quotas in mind is sufficient to see that something is wrong.

Be as angry as you wish–just as long as you recognize that alienating people who vote will send them toward candidates that you oppose.

I know, I know…I get extremely frustrated. And I do have to disagree especially in regards to the people on this board. Perhaps you can actually name someone here who is open minded about AA and not dogged in their attempt to prove the opposite point. What I have observed more often is a stubborn denial to even look at the facts, or completely read other people’s posts. (These people are more likely to flat out accuse me of some kind of reverse bigotry than I am to attribute their attitude to the same.) I think most of us who still believe in AA have admitted that it has it’s problems. The theory might be noble but the application often is uneven and mismanaged. What I have determined from working with people, individuals is that people in managment positions resent even the slightest nudge from anyone when it comes to this issue. They play along and resent the hell out of it. It really isn’t a lot different than the attitudes I encountered at the same time as a counselor in regards to workplace sexual harrassment. Actually the attitude was even worse on that subject.

I’m now convinced that AA is no longer helping people. Unless of course you realize that a person might have gotten a job and is in fact enjoying a better life personally because of AA iniciatives. Affirmative Action and the emotions that it drags up have however begun to have an adverse effect on our attitudes as a society. What people don’t seem to realize is that a noble idea and a genuine attempt to rectify a wrong has been demonized now and rendered unacceptable. Not because AA itself was wrong or because it was not needed but because a large enough segment of people resented it from the outset, feared it and corrupted it’s intentions.

Needs2know

I know, I know…I get extremely frustrated. And I do have to disagree especially in regards to the people on this board. Perhaps you can actually name someone here who is open minded about AA and not dogged in their attempt to prove the opposite point. What I have observed more often is a stubborn denial to even look at the facts, or completely read other people’s posts. (These people are more likely to flat out accuse me of some kind of reverse bigotry than I am to attribute their attitude to the same.) I think most of us who still believe in AA have admitted that it has it’s problems. The theory might be noble but the application often is uneven and mismanaged. What I have determined from working with people, individuals is that people in managment positions resent even the slightest nudge from anyone when it comes to this issue. They play along and resent the hell out of it. It really isn’t a lot different than the attitudes I encountered at the same time as a counselor in regards to workplace sexual harrassment. Actually the attitude was even worse on that subject.

I’m now convinced that AA is no longer helping people. Unless of course you realize that a person might have gotten a job and is in fact enjoying a better life personally because of AA iniciatives. Affirmative Action and the emotions that it drags up have however begun to have an adverse effect on our attitudes as a society. What people don’t seem to realize is that a noble idea and a genuine attempt to rectify a wrong has been demonized now and rendered unacceptable. Not because AA itself was wrong or because it was not needed but because a large enough segment of people resented it from the outset, feared it and corrupted it’s intentions.

BTW…when I worked as a counselor on the government installation, they did not have quotas. The EEO office did have statistical listings with target numbers that could be used as tool by the office in making a case. The guidelines that individual supervisors were using were very loosely worded. Something to the effect that they would uphold the law in regards to this issue and make every attempt to follow the iniciatives. That is exactly why so many people came to the counselors back in those days with complaints. Most people were happy to follow along with the status quo. It was only after someone had complained and the office started sniffing around that things would change. Of course the installation employed over 3000 people and the wheels must keep turning. On the whole I think the government did a decent and fair job of trying to apply the rules as fairly as possible.

Needs2know

I’ve stayed out of this debate for a couple of reasons, one of which is because I don’t have very strong feelings one way or another on the subject.

However, astorian’s post made me feel the need to say a few things.

I do not agree that having people of myriad races working together is inherently better than having a group of people of the same race working together.

It may turn out to be better; it may not. It certainly doesn’t depend on their race.

Yes, it is so awful. As you say, it is giving “a preference to one because he’s black, or because she’s Mexican-American”. That is nearly the definition of racism.

astorian continues:

Losing a spot for anything that way is more hurtful than if the Deans pulled names out of a hat. At least with the hat, I’m given the same chance as the other names in the hat (assuming a fair drawing).

Thanks for the responses, all.
I am not arguing against AA. I understand that America doesn’t treat minorities the same as white men. I don’t think that AA should be ended. I just feel that given a choice I’d like to see a priority placed on economic history in addition to ethnic history.