Unless they are good at killing, in which case they have free rein to do as they please.
I get the feeling from this thread that people think there’s something wrong with public masturbation. I thought we were all past that now. Ah well, the fight for civil rights will never end.
I don’t know why you Dopers insist on making a caricature of libertarians.
Libertarians with a small-l are people just like you and me who don’t like paying taxes but do want to smoke dope.
Libertarians with a large-L are small-l libertarians well read enough to know that the Rothschilds own the Federal Reserve Bank and have squirreled away millions of tons of gold they intend to use for research into vaccines that will give all your children autism. Libertarians just want that gold in the hands of good Christian bankers like Rich Ricci or the Diamond Brothers.
Based on such a criteria, you can’t be a liberal either.
That’s really the bottom line. It’s also a correct statement about socialism and other political ideologies.
The difference is in degree. Libertarianism has more problems with internal consistency than socialism or fascism or democracy; otherwise, we would have seen a real world example. Libertarianism is so dysfunctional, it has never even risen to the level of failure.
I’m not a libertarian but I think it should be ok to masturbate in public for different reasons, chief among them my desire to clear my record and be allowed back at the library again
The mistake you’re making is in assuming that you’ll be negotiating these agreements from first principles every time, so you’ll have to remember to add in every little eventuality. That’s now how humans work, though. We have customary standards, and you only need to negotiate when you go outside those collective standards. There will be standardized contracts that spell out lots of eventualities. Possibly, someone will come up with a clever loophole every once in a while that isn’t standardized, and then everyone will go revise their contracts. Just like we have now with the law. Someone finds a loophole and exploits it, and then it gets added to the boilerplate and we ignore it.
Of course not! You’ll have a standard agreement in place.
So I should assume I can’t step off my property without a signed agreement in place? How do I get to court to sue the guy who didn’t honor the contract?
Fred? Is that you?
You don’t. You shoot him.
I picture it like this:
I open my door, which opens inward, since I don’t own the sidewalk. The sidewalk has a bronze plate that says, “Heywood Sidewalks. Clean, even, slightly textured for grip in the rain. If you’ve got to get there, trust Heywood.”
Beneath that it says, "Commonlaw Standard Public Morality Agreement in effect. Using Heywood Sidewalks is construed as acceptance of said agreement. Toll Officers regularly patrol. Any Heywood Sidewalks authorized Toll Officer may require to see your Heywood Sidewalks License Scrip or demand payment for a day-pass. Failure to do either constitutes BREECH OF CONTRACT and you will be referred to local magistrate.
I have my Heywood Sidewalks scrip for the week and head on down to the local Piggly Wiggly. Unfortunately a quarter mile down the road there is a strip where the previous owner wouldn’t sell out to Heywood, so their length of sidewalk is Bosstone Pathways . I don’t usually go this direction, so I don’t have a Bosstone Scrip, but I will purchase a day pass on the off chance that a Toll Officer is walking that section. Today, unfortunately there he is. I make it half way down the cracked and dangerous Bosstone Pathways and the Toll Officer asks for 9 Liberty Dollars. Which is insane. “The toll is being increased for improvements. It’s only temporary.”
“Well Horseshit!” I say.
He cuffs me in the side of the head hard enough that I see stars. He then reminds me that Bosstone Pathways are under the Commonlaw Church and Sanctified Places Morality Agreement. Which, of course, includes light corporal punishment for swearing as one of the rights of the enforcers. My bad for not taking the time to read the Bosstone Plate in detail. I head back the way I came and instead will walk around the Bosstone section. It only adds four miles to my trip, and at my wage, that’s worth it to save 9 liberty dollars…
Ah the freedom of my life!
You’re free to generate as much stench as you like, as long as none of your stench escapes from your private property onto my private property.
Oh, it turns out that you can’t control stench once you’ve created it, and you can’t help it that your stench comes onto my property? Well, then, no stench for you. You aren’t allowed to create trash and dump your trash onto my property, whether that trash is solid, liquid, or gaseous.
The libertarian solution is to create a market for open-air masturbation. We make an arbitrary social decision up front on how to allocate masturbation rights. Whether we allocate them initially to the onlookers or to the masturbators is of no consequence since an efficient solution will be reached by market bargaining, anyway. What ultimately happens is that the people we want to see masturbate in public will be incentivized to do so and likewise for the people we don’t want to see. It’s a coercion-free, welfare-maximizing private order.
Right?
Well, not a bad ideal, I’ll grant you. Include things like flies, mosquitos, vultures, etc. (The pig farmer can’t just lay carcasses out to be devoured, because vultures will not respect property lines.)
Of course, now we’re into litigation, and thus some minimal government power to enforce the courts’ decisions. And once a particular ruling has been made a number of times, it makes sense to encode it as a law; otherwise, we keep cluttering up the courts with already-decided issues. Seems that we’re re-inventing government…
Linden Arden, would you please define libertarian in non-masturbatory terms? And when you say masturbating, do you mean fully exposed or being covered up? I don’t think that being a libertarian means that you believe that indecent exposure is impossible.
Don’t blame me for getting into this predicament. When I bought my land I had a quite amicable and reasonable agreement with my neighbours. My problems didn’t start until this yahoo came along and bought a strip of land that surrounds my property. He won’t sign a general ongoing agreement with me; he insists on only making agreements on a case-by-case basis.
It could be worse; my neighbour is only doing this to be annoying so he’s always agreed to let me cross his land once he’s had his fun. I heard about a guy in the next town over who had a beautiful mansion and thirty acres of landscaped property. Then some asshole bought a one-inch strip along his entire property line and refused to let the guy cross his “property”. The guy couldn’t get in or out of his own property and ended up having to sell it to the asshole for less than a tenth of its real value.
Oh well, that’s life in Libertopia I guess. Just one of the inconveniences we have to endure in order to be free.
Sorry, but this is absurd. If by “public” you mean “on government-owned property”, the government has as much right to regulate what happens there as any other property owner does on his or her own property.
Of course, I have the disadvantage of being an actual, real flesh-and-blood libertarian, not the kind you make up in your head.
I have a house that abuts to a public road. I’m standing nude and wiping a soapy ass on the inside surface of my picture window. There is a school across the street. Okay?
Also, why does the government own property? Could you explain that briefly?
Glad you showed up. Now help us with the question. If somebody wants to stand out on their front lawn (their own property) and masturbate in full view of everyone else on the street, do they have the right to do that in a libertarian society?