Post #11 explained the problem pretty clearly.
I can’t say I agree. Post 11 makes a lot of references to a “focus” on spammy/sleazy uses of VPNs that is simply not evident in the thread in question (perhaps I overlooked it but I went back specifically looking for it and did not see it). My inference was that charlie had brought this stuff up in his PMs with the mods but then steered clear of it in the public discussion. So I really can’t see anything wrong with the thread as it stands.
Perhaps even more.
Oh guys. An anonymous proxy lets you hide your IP address. A VPN lets you encrypt the traffic coming from that address. Lots of people use VPN’s for legitimate business use, but only spammers and hookers use anonymous proxies. Let’s try to keep it straight. If you aren’t quite sure what fits your situation, message me privately and we’ll work it out.
The problem here is that Charlie didn’t want to discuss VPNs. If we take Charlie at his word, then it’s clear that he didn’t even understand what a VPN is.
What Charlie actually wanted to talk about is more properly called IP Spoofing.
If, instead of using the term VPN, we use the term IP Spoofing, I think it becomes a lot more clear why we objected to his thread.
He was basically saying “hey, I’ve discovered this great new thing called IP Spoofing, and even though I know it is used for all kinds of illegal stuff, I want to talk about the legal parts of it so that I can tell everyone about IP spoofing and they can use IP Spoofing for themselves.” It wasn’t that he wanted to learn more about it or anything like that. His primary interest was in sharing this new thing that he discovered as he was certain that other folks would find it useful.
Since the main uses for IP spoofing are things like hiding your IP so that you can’t get caught for copyright violations for illegal uploads and downloads and evading IP bans, IP spoofing is something that we generally don’t want discussed around here.
Similarly, even though there are some legal uses for torrents, we generally don’t allow discussions about torrents here either.
As for VPNs in general though, there’s no objection to those. Most applications of VPNs are perfectly legal and are perfectly fine to discuss here.
Let me put it this way. If you open a thread about something like IP Spoofing or torrents or other things whose primary purpose is not for something legal, the thread will most likely be shut down immediately. If you think that there’s a legal aspect of it that you wish to discuss, it’s in your best interest to contact us and we can work through it and maybe lay down some ground rules for the thread to keep it on the legal side of the line so that we don’t have to shut it down.
Yes, there’s a valid point here that we mishandled this particular situation, and we’ve admitted that from the start. Don’t take away the wrong less from this though just because we screwed up this time.
This may have been what was in the PM - and that’s perfectly reasonable to ‘not’ want to discuss or give permission for - but that is not what is in the thread in question.
He may have been headed that way - but it wasn’t there yet - and as you said - he clearly needed educating on VPNs, etc.
Again - where in the ACTUAL thread that was locked was any discussion of illegal activity?
Since the PM content was ‘VASTLY’ different then the thread itself - why not simply mod note in the thread that any discussion of ip spoofing (or really, promotion of ip spoofiing, I should be able to start a thread to discuss how it works and how to identify it, etc) or other borderline illegal activities will get the thread locked.
The only admission, until now, of a ‘screwup’ was in not telling CW that his permission was denied quicker - which was for a PM content that was ‘VASTLY’ different than the actual thread.
So, under discussion now is NOT the PM request - but the actual thread.
Why was it locked, given that
a) the content of the thread did not match what he was requesting permission to post - in fact, the content of the thread did not require any permission to post.
b) there is no discussion in the thread, prior to it being locked, of any of these nefarious things??
Except that some of us are still dissatisfied with Idle Thoughts take on this:
OP should have waited. He did.
OP should have emailed other Mods. How was he supposed to know that?
OP should have emailed a second time. He did.
OP somehow should have known that the Mod he was PMing was on a 5 day vacation. :smack:
A little clarification here.
EoG is correct in this except, you CAN get caught. Every one of those providers has a policy of cooperating with authorities with respect to a user violating the law. In fact, I’ll bet their TOS provides that you not use their service for illegal activities. (child porn, etc.) Those providers know your real IP and it’s just a subpoena away from anyone getting it.
Just wanted to get that in before someone thinks they have discovered a workaround to the copyright laws.
That doesn’t matter.
Again, comparing it to something like torrents, if you bring up the subject of torrents, even if you say you only want to discuss doing legal things with it, we generally don’t allow the thread (that’s been the policy here since long before I became a moderator).
IP Spoofing discussions have also been shut down in the past.
The only thing different here is that Charlie referred to it as a VPN service, and since VPNs in general are ok to discuss, this has caused quite a bit of confusion here over what is and isn’t allowed.
This thread dates back to 2002, but it’s the first one that came up in a search. But if Charlie had worded it the same way that the OP of this thread worded it, then I don’t think we would be having this discussion now. However, he is talking about exactly the same thing.
There is nothing illegal discussed in that thread either.
I think the point that Idle Thoughts is trying to make is that if you need approval from us and don’t hear back from us, you shouldn’t just go ahead and post the thing that needs approval.
That said, I think you have a very valid point. We took too long and things were a bit disorganized, and this kinda fell between the cracks and wasn’t handled properly. We’ll try to do better in the future.
This is untrue and also ridiculous. I don’t understand what I ever did to you that caused you to be so angry with me.
I said I didn’t know what a proxy network was. But if you look at the OP in the thread I started. I explained exactly what a VPN is.
I know what a VPN is and it’s completely false to say that I wanted to discuss IP Spoofing. I don’t know where you got that from but it’s completely untrue.
I never wanted to discuss that and I never did discuss that.
This is untrue and also ridiculous. I don’t understand what I ever did to you that caused you to be so angry with me.
I said I didn’t know what a proxy network was. But if you look at the OP in the thread I started. I explained exactly what a VPN is.
I know what a VPN is and it’s completely false to say that I wanted to discuss IP Spoofing. I don’t know where you got that from but it’s completely untrue.
I never wanted to discuss that and I never did discuss that.
Back in post #10 I said I was satisfied with things and then you keep coming in and making things worse. Then in post #11, you come in and …
Everytime this thread seems to have run its course, you come back and you make things worse.
If anyone comes away from this thread with the knowledge how to do illegal things, it will be because you explained it to them.
How do you figure that you know what is in my mind? You’re not a mind reader. Are you? Ridiculous.
I’m not angry with you.
A VPN is a network connection. It is not a method to hide your IP. A proxy network is a way to hide your IP. The VPN is what connects you to the proxy network. The VPN is only the network connection.
You have yet to demonstrate that you understand what a VPN actually is.
Feel free to start a thread in GQ that says “what is a VPN” (and please just keep it to that) and I’ll be happy to explain in great detail what a VPN is and how it works.
You want to discuss connecting to a remote proxy network via VPN in order to protect your identity by hiding your true IP. That’s IP Spoofing, plain and simple. In fact, the entire point of it is to spoof your IP. There are very few clearer examples of IP Spoofing out there.
It’s not the only way to spoof your IP, but it is IP Spoofing.
As I’m sure you are aware the mods voluntarily volunteered to be a mod. Some have even said it was years inbetween the time they put in their application and actually becoming a mod. They literally waited years while wanting to do this job. One would assume if a mod asked you for clarification and you provided it they would get back to you in less than 6 days since they want to do this job so much they do it for free.
What? Aren’t you psychic like the rest of us. Miss Cleo ain’t just some fraud defrauding idiots out of their money you know.
OK. I have to concede one point to you. That is that I mistakenly thought a VPN hid my IP adress. That was a mistake and I apologize to you for anything that flowed from that mistake.
But that doesn’t change the fact that you keep saying you know what I wanted to discuss and that is completely untrue. I did not want to discuss anything illegal. I did not want to discuss hiding my IP. I wanted to tell people about a good way they could protect themselves from Identity theft.
If a VPN encodes all your traffic, wouldn’t you agree it’s a good way for people to protect themselves against Identity theft?
*There are many reasons for using anonymizers. Anonymizers help minimize risk. They can be used to prevent identity theft, or to protect search histories from public disclosure.
Some countries apply heavy censorship on the internet.[3][4][5][6][7] Anonymizers can help in allowing free access to all of the internet content, but cannot help against persecution for accessing the Anonymizer website itself. Furthermore, as information itself about Anonymizer websites are banned in these countries, users are wary that they may be falling into a government-set trap.[8]
Anonymizers are also used by people who wish to receive objective information with the growing target marketing on the internet and targeted information. For example, large news outlets such as CNN target the viewers according to region and give different information to different populations. Websites such as YouTube obtain information about the last videos viewed on a computer, and propose “recommended” videos accordingly, and most of the online targeted marketing is done by showing advertisements according to that region. Anonymizers are used for avoiding this kind of targeting and getting a more objective view of information.[9]*
This is more of a GQ topic than an ATMB topic.
I have started a GQ thread about VPNs here:
Please use that thread for all of your questions about how a VPN works.
OK. Thank you. I hope you don’t hold any hard feelings. I feel like I’ve been run over by a Mack Truck. But maybe I’m just not understanding.
I will comply and if I have any questions about VPNs, I will take you up on your offer.
I feel like I should give it a day or two to settle down first though.
Thank you.
I suggest you close this thread. But it’s up to you of course.
P.S. I’m certain there must be some information in or around these topics that would benefit the members of this board and maybe you might like to consider how that info can be given to the members? I understand you want me to use the thread you started and so I won’t post anything more in this thread. I’m out.
Careful - you’re posting factual information about how and why ipspoofing might be used - that’ll get this thread locked!!!
alert - alert - alert - alert
All joking aside, too much talk about IP Spoofing and anonymizers will get this thread locked.