Then that may by your own personal hangup, because Tavis Smiley was born Sept. 13, 1963 and Tavist D (and subsequently ND) wasn’t even approved by the FDA until 1996.
http://www.centerwatch.com/patient/drugs/dru177.html.
Try again. I’m sure if you look hard enough, somebody, somewhere could come up with something arbitrarily irritating about you and use that as a reason to exclude. Would you think that was fair?
Well, that’s sort of my point. They are chosen to fit into the smaller, more intimate society. They are subtly not encouraging the expectation that the child with such a name will be launched into the larger society.
Sad, perhaps. But its acknowledging the reality and giving your kid the advantage of a name that isn’t going to mark them before people even meet them. Whether you don’t want your kid marked as low class White, entitled White, Jewish, Asian or Black. I figure I’m going to saddle my kids with enough baggage - I really don’t need to saddle them with an ethnic name.
My son is adopted from Korea, and we could have kept his Korean name - and decided against it - his birthmother’s family name is his middle name, but his Korean given name is a relic of his personal history. If he wants to change it back, he can make that decision. Whenever we bring up using it in any form - he makes faces at us, he find the idea of being marked as different in that fashion to be horrifying.
Only if you assume that people in the larger society are bigots against names. And only if you assume that people in the larger society are bigots against the people associated with names (which, in that case, there’s no hope for black people anyway).
Can you explain to me why Keisha’s such a bad name? Maybe it’s because I’ve been hanging around too many “Lashawns”, but I don’t get why this name is any more divisive and nonconforming than the nontraditional yet popular names white people gravitate towards. Does McKenna has some special quality that Keisha doesn’t have? Should I assume someone named McKenna has more socially conscientious parents than the parents of Keisha?
I meant to add–I don’t equate not fitting in with the larger society as bad. I have not made that value judgment at all.
What I mean by society is a collection of rules, mostly attached to people, most of which have no meaning unless everyone agrees they have meaning. That’s society. There are bigots against names–not everybody, but they’re out there, we know it, we’re talking about it. So are you going to challenge their bigotry by giving your kid one kind of name, or are you going to give your kid a name that has a heroic meaning inside the smaller society? Or are you going to give the kid a name that’s one less thing to talk about?
Me? I have nothing against Keisha. Or if I do, it’s the same thing I have against Madison. And I have a granddaughter named Madison. (No, they didn’t ask me.)
See, if I adopted a child (let’s say they were eight years or older…old enough to be attached to their name), I would feel weird changing his name. Especially if they were of a different ethnic/racial group.
Like, if someone adopted me as an older child and decided my name was too “black” and chose instead to call me Sally or Jane. It would make me feel as if they felt like they had to whitewash me in order to love me. I suppose if they simply didn’t like my name (it was “Demonica”, for instance) then that would be one thing. But simply having a name that marks me as being a black person? Ouch.
Though, I can see how substituting American names for foreign names is a little different.
How can it not be a bad thing, though?
Are you going to challenge the bigotry by telling your kid that there’s nothing wrong with being black, or are you going to tell him he’s got to bleach his skin and straighten his hair and his nose? Are you going to challenge the bigotry by telling your kid that there’s nothing wrong with being black, or are you going to tell him to move to an all-white neighborhood, make friends only with whites, and eschew all things that are black. Including his name.
Seriously, I’m all about taking the path of least resistance and I don’t like ridiculous names either. But naming a child so that he appears as white as possible is not only self-hating behavior, but it doesn’t fix bigotry at all. It accomodates it and makes it justifiable.
I went back and read the thread you are talking about. Just a couple of points that I think you missed. I believe it was established that these were not names of heritage but simply names to be unusual for unusual sake. I also do not think this pertains only to blacks.
I have a cousin who names her children Destinee and Poetry. (both he and his wife are from lower class backgrounds and neither graduated high school). To me he named his girls stripper names and gave them a strike against them before they even learned to walk.
Unfortunately, I, as a person who must make a determination of what applicant to see for a position, am less likely to interview Poetry than Margaret. Is that racist? No. Is it name discrimination? Certainly but the point is, certain names seem to reflect a certain background which makes an applicant less desirable. Is it fair, of course not but it is reality. Ironically, the people that name their children unusual names or use unusual spelling aren’t aware enough of the damage they may be doing to their child’s future.
I went to school with a girl who grew up in a very strict Jewish family, in a Jewish neighborhood, with strict Jewish expectations. She wanted out of those expectations, all of them, and she got out. But her parents didn’t want her out, particularly. They were happy in the smaller society, and in fact made fun of many aspects of the larger society (I am speaking very broadly here). They–the parents–thought the larger society was, in fact, a bad thing. My friend thought it was a good thing. Different strokes.
I’m all for challenging the bigotry, but there are just so many things. There’s a long history of people changing their names–surnames, too, not just first names–in order to appear less of what they used to be and more of what they want to be. Really I don’t have a problem with these “Here I am, and you’ll take me for what I am and you’ll like it” types of names, but they do seem to me like an additional burden. Not doing it doesn’t strike me as making them appear as white as possible, just more mainstream. In no way do I see it as accommodating bigotry or making it justifiable.
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There are plenty of business people here with “Shaniqua” type names and other “odd” monikers. There’s a prominent lawyer by the name of Precious Martin. He’s a dude, by the way. From the bar association list, more attorneys: Deshun … Kenya … LaShundra … Let’s see … a state senator named Kelvin … Representatives named Reecy … Omeria … Shaun… Sherra … Credell … . Hmm… University professors Audwin Fletcher, Ph.D… Dion Jones, Ph.D … Wynetta Lee, Ph.D…I could go on and on. (Not all of these are black folks, either.)
Such names didn’t seem to stop these folks. Maybe we’re used to unique names in Jackson, I don’t know, but I don’t buy the attitude that “black-sounding” names ruin a person’s ability to “fit into society”. There’s plenty of “fittin’ in” going on 'round here.
OTOH, I’m never going to hire a lawyer named Bambi. May be my loss, but so be it.
Mainstream is “white” in this society, though.
Changing surnames is interesting. As I said earlier, a number of surnames are “marked” as black, even though they are quite American (what’s more American than “Washington”?). A name bigot may assume that “Monica Washington” is a darkie name and then put the resume bearing it in the garbage. Should Monica change her last name so that doesn’t happen? Where should the paranoia end?
I actually think it’s sad when people Anglocize their last names out of fear. This country has had how many immigrant groups now? Why should one be ranked higher than the others?
How does anyone know if the names were chosen for that reason? The OP was talking about “black names”–and listed a bunch of disparate names that he thought were ridiculous. What is so ridiculous about “Quanda”? Is “Quan” a ridiculous name as well? What if the person bearing the name is Vietnamese? It’s only ridiculous if you don’t know anyone by that name. I had a classmate named Quanda and she was one of the most put together students at my school. It certainly doesn’t belong in a list of “ridiculous” names. “Niqui”, I’ll give you. But that’s no more a black name than “Pashleigh” is a white name.
“Jennifer” is a ridiculous name outside of its context. It sounds like a strange mammal, or perhaps a piece of textile equipment (the automatic jennifer, for all your spinning jenny needs). The only reason people think it’s suitable is because it’s so ubiqutous in this country. But the first “Jennifer” was probably hated too. They probably stoned her for being the town harlot.
Thank you.
The question isn’t “should black people give their kids normal names.” In California, eough people are named “Juan” that “Juan” is a normal name. But nobody here is arguing that black people should name their kids “Juan.”
The question here is “should black people give their kids white names.”
And I have a problem with the people saying “Yes, black people should give their kids white people names so that maybe white people will like them more.”
In the end this isn’t about names, it’s about culture. Basically, a large chunk of American thinks that African-American culture either doesn’t exist (the “these names are just made up and come out of nowhere argument”) or that it is not a good culture (the “this names shows that they grew up in ignorance” argument.)
And a lot of us think that is racism, and that basing thinks like hiring practices on these ideas is outright despicable.
And so what?
Giving your children names based on heritage is not something that is universally agreed upon as a “good” thing. God didn’t come down from on high and decide that everyone should be named on something based on their heritage.
Different cultures have different naming practices.
Sikhs all have the last name “Kaur” or “Singh”, in part to erase people (cast-determined) traditional last names.
I believe there was a Vietnamese tradition of changing your last name to the name of the current royalty.
I’ve lived here a year and a half, and I still don’t really understand how people give their names. Muslims have a Muslim name that a maribou gives them. Christians have a French name and now and then a Muslim picks one up, too. Almost everyone has a tribal name, which may or may not be the same as the name they use in village- which is different from their other names. Most people end up with a neighborhood nickname. If they don’t, they usually get a name based on their work (“Sali Moto” or “Dairou Guardien”) . Married women get a name from their friends when they get married based on the day they get married, which their kids call them and which they seem to use when refering to themselves. Everyone else calls mothers “Mother of firstborn child”. Unmarried women are sometimes simply be their Muslim name and the name of their most respected relative. If you’ve gone to Mecca, you are “Hadja” or “Alhadji”, although you can also just be named that or earn it by being rich or respected. People have what we think of as surnames, and these go in front of their other name, and they arn’t handed down through the generations. I honestly have no idea where these come from, but people tell me they come from their family and are somehow different than their other names. All this is complicated by the fact that the name on their birth certificate and official IDs is often just a single name.
I am a teacher, and calling role is one of those great exersizes in bridging a cultural divide.
However, people here think our names are weird. The husband-wife couples here get in trouble now and then for having the same last name. Here, that implies that they are brother and sister. People think it’s wierd and kind of uncomfortable that i have a name that was also my father’s, because you arn’t really supposed to ever say your father’s name.
I’ve worked with twins called Donald and Desmond who are of Indian extraction and Africans called Irvine, Samuel, Grace, Maria and Ada. I’ve also worked with people who had names more traditional to their culture- such as Slavomir (Polish), Sana (Finnish), Hafizah (Malaysian), Kalpana (Indian), Cheung (Hong Kong Chinese) and Liisi (Estonian).
I think it would be a shame if names were homogenised to some sort of “acceptable” standard so that everyone could “fit in”. There are beautiful names from all over the world that would be lost.
Even if the person does change their name, she’s still going to be an outsider to some people.
Bolding added. I think whether a name is ridiculous or not is in the eye of the beholder, and doesn’t have much to do with the level-headedness of the bearer. I’m sure there are names in every culture that would make me wonder what the parent was thinking, but I only comfortable* thinking those things about names that come from cultures that I’m familiar with.
*Which doesn’t mean I’d feel comfortable acting on those judgements, or assuming anything about the socioeconomic status of the parents (in the case of black names…for some reason there are white names that sound “poor” to me), or the personality of the child.
I actually think that the reason a name like “Quanda” sounds ridiculous to certain people is because they don’t know anyone named this. Or maybe they do know someone, but they didn’t like that person, and so therefore in their minds, the name must be “bad”.
I know someone who’s pretty nice and normal with that name, so it doesn’t seem like a bad one to me.
Why Quanda is any more ridiculous than Rhonda or Wanda is something I’d like to know. Does the “Qua” somehow adulterate the word?
It occurs to me that all the posters here decrying “unusual” names must not watch daytime talk shows. No, don’t look at the crazy guests. Look at the hosts. Montell, Oprah, Tyra. Back in the day, we had the Queen Latifah Show, the Rolanda Watts Show, the Vernice Berry Show, and Tempestt Bledsoe Show. I’m sure those people love what their names did for them.
If Dana Owens hadn’t adopted her moniker, she’d probably still be stuck in Irvington, NJ.
Maybe just “a certain economic clas?” Or even a subset of “a certain economic class?”
Sorry, I can admit that I exercise a name bias when going through resumes - but due to geography there just aren’t a whole lot of “blacks of a certain economic class” in the mix to start with.
But, seriously - if I have fifteen resumes to look at, and I’m to select two to actually call in for interviews, I’m going to give “Judy” more consideration than I give to “Mackayla.”
Yes, this is a bit classist. It’s also practical. A name like “Mackayla” is an indicator of (at least) the parents’ level of education and literacy. People can rise above their parents’ limitations - but frequently, they don’t.
By way of a handy example, let me disclose that my sisters and I started in a trailer park. My sisters both have hyphenated names that advertise pretty reliably that they have origins in or around the trailer-park. These sisters are the Grasshopper and the Ant, personified.
One has always been a hard worker, and the other has been - well, trailer trash. The hard-working one prefers to go by a name modified from her given name - omitting the hyphen and everything after it, and expanding the first part into a “real” name from the diminuitive on her birth certificate. (She has always hated her name as she felt it sounds “stupid.”) Her kids have “normal” names and have had good values instilled at them. Her oldest daughter is an educator.
The other sister has (without any exaggeration) done nothing but reproduce - producing six children - not a single one of which shares the same father. These kids have never actually lived in a trailer park, but the trailer park sticks to them anyway. They have trailer names. What’s a grown man legally named “Ajay” going to do with his life? Anything is possible. As it turns out, though, he joined a gang.
His half-sisters and half-brothers have done a bit better, but not much. One of them has a better-than-menial job and a profound sense of embarrassment about my sister. She’ll probably be okay.
Anyway, my point is - yeah, of course a person isn’t defined by their name. Of course people can rise above humble origins. But when I have a pile of resumes, (after I reduce it to the ones that actually indicate they meet the qualifications advertised for,) there’s going to be some culling. That’s the process.
I wouldn’t discard a good resume with an unfortunate name in favour of a poorly-written resume from “Sarah Thompson,” but if I have two resumes that are of approximately the same quality, and one has a phonetically-rendered corruption of a french name at the top – yeah, I’m going to keep the one that doesn’t carry any negative connotation with regard to the social class of the applicant’s family.
It’s not “fair” for everyone, but it’s in the company’s best interest, on balance.
When I become president, I will add socioeconomic class to the list of protected groups. Obviously people don’t see anything wrong with discriminating against the poor, and this attitude needs to change if we ever want to live Martin Luther King’s dream (he was, after all, married to a “Coretta”). I’ll stock my cabinent with all the Bubba’s, Lashawn’s, Marislaysius’s, and Aretha’s I can. But no Condelezza’s. Those bitches are gap-toothed liars.
(Who knew that “Makala” was a lower-class name? Guess you learn something new everyday.)