Napster, I don't get it.

I would appreciate it if you would please help me clear something up about Napster. I have read a lot about the court case and the fate of Napster etc… but everything I have read, almost without exception seems to be heavily biased in Napsters favour. The problem I’m having is that I cannot understand the difference between downloading a song from Napster and stealing a CD from a shop.
What I mean is that when I download something from Napster lots of people lose out, for example:

a) The artists lose out because they’re not getting any royalties.
b) The Record company is losing out because people are not buying the records.
c) The shops which sell records are losing out too because they are being denied the chance to sell the records. What I mean is if I decided to download the new Eminem album, song by song for free using Napster, I am not going to rush out to a shop and buy a backup copy. I am going to stay at home whereas, if Napster didn’t exist, I would be on my way to the shop, cash in hand, ready to purchase the album. Therefore the shop and the people who work for the shop are all losing money.

I cannot see anything remotely ethical about Napster and I can’t seem to find anything which discusses the issue in an objective and unbiased way.
The way I see it, to download a song from Napster is to steal money from all of the people I listed above. I don’t see why there is any debate about whether to keep Napster or not at all, the fact that the debate is still raging is confusing me. Can you guys please help me out.

BTW - I am puzzled why I can’t find any other threads discussing this, I looked but I couldn’t find any.

Thanks

Gomez.

Have you ever listened to your friend’s CD before buying it yourself? You could have made a tape, but you just listened to it and said “Yes, that’s a great CD! I’m buying it!”

That is also a possible use of Napster. There are many different facets of this case, and it is very confusing The bottom line is that yes if you use Napster to the detriment of your music purchases it is unethical at the least, but certainly borrowing a friend’s CD is ethical, so why isn’t listening to a friend’s MP3 (made legally if they have the CD) also legal? Of course, the MP3 isn’t ‘loaned’ exclusively to you, so it’s not quite the same as loaning a CD, but if the net is for you to buy it, why not?

The real problem IMHO is that the recording industry doesn’t have a solution to the desire of people to download music on the web. Rather than work with their current single point of contact Napster, they are trying to shut it down. This is a grave mistake, because other technologies will arise which do not involve a central point of contact and which will thus be impossible to control.

The music industry is cutting of the head of the snake, they don’t see the hydra waiting to take its place.

I downloaded Fill Her Up by Sting. My niece told my sister that she thought she wanted the CD that Desert Rose was on. So, I sent a copy of Fill Her Up via e-mail to my sister with an explanation that the other songs that I have heard were just as good and that I didn’t think Fill Her Up would ever get air play on the radio because it’s not pop music material. So, what did my sister do? She went out and bought 2 copies of Brand New Day. One for her and one for my niece.

Example number two. My nephew is a musician and he loves Napster because it is a way for his music to be heard by others since he doesn’t get radio play.

Have you ever visited Napster? There are chat rooms for people to talk about their kind of music. It’s not just trading files.

You buy a music cdrom & you give it to your friends & they give it to more friends. It’s suppposed to be like that.

But then I never use napster, most obviously.

Napster will be shut down

Bill H. You smug S.O.B.

What’s wrong with stealing

Napster’s future???

CD Morality Question

'nuff said?

Thanx guys.

I think things make much more sense if you realize that there is a scope shift in the OP.

and

deal with two different issues. One is Napster’s existence, and the other is concerned with an individual’s use of Napster. It is perfectly logical to defend Napster’s presence on the net while decrying individual’s misuse of the service. It has been brought up in this and other threads that Napster has legitimate uses. There are plenty of arguments as to why it is wrong to ‘steal’ music from the net. However, I don’t think a case has been made that Napster as a program should be shut down that does not rely on the actions of non-Napster individuals. If there is, please point me in the right direction. And if there is such a reason, why does the reasoning behind that not compel the shutting down of IRC servers, or any other type of software that facilitates the exchange of file transfers?

I understand why you consider piracy to be stealing from artists and record companies. After all, if you listen to a song and enjoy it, they have provided you with a service, regardless of whether you actually buy a CD. But if you don’t buy a CD, just what service has the record store provided? If I grow my own carrots, am I stealing from the grocery store?

The reason things seem in Napster’s favor is because so many people want it that way.

“Hey man, music should be freeeeeeeee”

Despite it being a rather large logical fallicy, it reality it tends to be the best argument.
And interestingly enough… in a democratic socitety, you might be able to argue that it’s not a fallicy at all, but rather the very structure of the society.

I think Phil Dennison makes a very strong argument on the “Napster will be shut down” thread (see link above) that makes precisely these distinctions. I disagree with him over Napster on other grounds, but IMO he cuts the legs out from under a whole bunch of bad pro-Napster arguments.

Napster is like trading poems with other people on a bulletin board.

I pretty much have a que sera sera mentality about the Napster case at this point (like I was when I was using it), so just a few closing statements:

Gomez - The things you have to understand is 1) This isn’t a black-and-white issue, and 2) in any event, it’s extremely difficult to rationalize the RIAA’s full-bore two-smoking-guns damn-the-torpedoes lawsuit.

First off, the “overwhelmingly favorable press” that Napster has gotten. They reason they’ve gotten it is because the service has done a lot of positive things, especially giving publicity to little-known artists and enabling them to make a living (which pretty much kills the “destroying artists’ livelihood” argument dead). And the record stores benefit as well, since they’re the ones capitalizing on the artists’ newfound popularity. The ones that are hurt the most are the big record companies (who have a proven track record of overcharging for CDs) and some old groups living off of royalties. Which side do you expect a free press to take?

As douglips and many others have pointed out, killing Napster isn’t going to stop file swapping; it’ll just pass the buck to any number of smaller, decentralized services, any one of which will be difficult to target. If the RIAA had any sense, they would have realized that Internet swapping was not only inevitable and unstoppable…but usable! You know, use Napster as a source of advertising, publicity, pay-per-use special services, and so forth. There was a potential gold mine here which the RIAA completely missed out on.

Underlying all this, however, is a far more basic issue (which Ted has pointed out) of whether it’s even worth it to prosecute each and every little law. I mean, how many people obey every speed limit every time? Yet only a small percentage of speeders get into accidents, the same as the rest of the population. Of all the traffic altercations I’ve had, all of them occurred when I was going less than 5 MPH. Of course speeding is illegal all the time, but since it’s impossible to catch every single speeder and there’s relatively little harm done, most of the time it goes unchecked. And even those that do get caught only have to pony up a fine, not their licences. Same with “stealing intellectual property”. Yes, it may be violating a copyright, but where’s the harm? The big reason I rarely buy CDs is that they’re too expensive, so Napster really hasn’t given me anything I wouldn’t have paid for in the first place…and again, any lost sales have to be balanced against the good side of the service. Also, with millions of downloaders and numerous services waiting to take over Napster’s place, how can anyone even attempt to prosecute them all?

I’m not advocating lawlessness by any means. Serious crimes such as rape and murder should continue to be fully prosecuted. But these are actions which are known cause great harm and generally accepted to be wrong, and it is possible to prosecute all, or at least a large number, of such offenders. See. Priority. Perspective. Will of the people. Not just the letter of the law. That’s how a free society works.

There’s also the issue of whether anyone has the right to make millions out of music, something a lot of people who are pretty good at it don’t get a paid a cent for, but I won’t get into that.

RTFirefly - I’ve read the arguments against Napster, and to me they’re just as weak and unconvincing as some of the arguments in favor of it. Reality check…opposing a popular service on the grounds that it’s technically “illegal”…or worse, immoral…is unlikely to change anyone’s mind. Another example: We already know that “the only safe sex is no sex”…so what, is that supposed to keep us virginal for our entire lives?

Correction: Napster is like trading poems that you didn’t write but someone else did, and is trying to sell them while you give them away for free.

Timeout. Please tell me who these artists are, and show your suporting evidence for this claim. And please show how “Napster” itself has done this, and not online music trading in general.

The question isn’t so much wheter or not swapping music is going to be stopable. It’s wheter or not someone will be able to make money off of it, wheter that be with banners, pay per dl, or some of the other cockamaney schemes defenders of Napster have come up with.

(I for one say hell no to this idea. It’s one thing to encourage or help the spread of “free music” as so many put it… it’s quite another to make money off of spreading this “free music” at the owners expense. )

I said all that? Gee. blushing :wink:

well… in all fairness… I think that some could make a legitmate argument that the “fair use” policies don’t really in fringe upon this… it’s somthing that’s really hard to say. Esp. becuase the orginal source of it wasn’t stolen… shrug =]

Good points. Though I’m sure somone can argue them nonethe less :wink:

That’s for our socialist brethren to decide.

As Napster is right now, I think there is only one legitimate practical argument against it. Bascialy it desenseitizes our youth.

Napster provides a very easy
method to obtain free music. While most of us have a sort of ethic distilled in us that if we like the song, we should buy the CD. However this ethic isn’t being passed to the younger generation.
More and more you see 10 and 11 year olds saying that music should be free and not really having any exposure to the concpet that somone should get paid for what they create.
Now then, I’m not sugesting that this will have any effect on other products, but as far as CD’s and music is concerend
it almost certinaly will. The % of CD consumers in the next generation could drop by half or even more.
This is not a good thing.
The harms of Napster and similar technology aren’t immediatly obvious… but just wait 5 to 10 years down the road.

Did anyone else see Letterman Friday night?

Dave: Hey, Paul, did I tell you i bought one of those Napsters the other day?
Paul: Really??
Dave: Yep, that’s right. I went down to Radio Shack and bought me a Napster. Boy, those things are cool.
Paul: … bought yourself a Napster.
Dave: And I just hooked it up to my radio, and before I knew it, I was recording songs right off the radio.
Paul: amazing.
Dave: Yep. I won’t have to buy those CD’s anymore! And I heard they got Napster’s for TV’s already. Why if we had one, we could record this very program!
Paul: No kidding!
Dave: But, man, this napster thing is going to put the whole music industry out of business. It is going to put you and the band out of business, Paul.
Paul: We’re already out of business!

(I’m paraphrasing, of course. Next time I’ll hook up my napster, promise.)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ted *
**

 HARMS?!?!?! I admit that Napster may be "harming" the music industry right now, but it will not in the future, mostly because the music industry won't exist! That sucks for the music industry, but is good for every one else on Earth. Nobody like the industry. Established artists regularly get screwed by then, consumers get gouged by them, and smaller bands get no chance thanks to them. The sooner they are gode, the better. Thanks to digital recording technology and Internet distribution it is easier for all musicians to be heard, even without the support of shady highly paid execs.
 Please don't confuse change with harm. For thousands of years before us, musicians have lived without the recording industry. Music will continue. I think that musical creativeity and innovation will even grow thanks to new technology.
 Tuning in to banal drivel the radio, I can see that change is sorely needed.

Ack! My apologies for the convoluted quotes and the bold. I will do better next time, I promise.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by even sven *
**

Again, it will harm the music industry. Do you know how it works? Do you know how “well established artists” get well established? The reason music is so prolific today, and you have so many good songs you like is BECAUSE of that music industry.
Sure musical creativeity and innovation will continue to grow… but you just won’t hear most of the good stuff.

Again, the music/recording industry is the one taking them to trial. They have a stake in this, if they can show that napster will harm it. And you obviously have pointed out that it will, saying that there will be no recording industry. Then napster can be shut down.

Please don’t confuse change with good. As much as you think the “industry” is bad (and it does need change) with out it, or somthing like it, you’re just not going to have all the benifits you’re use to.

Ted:

Originally posted by DKW
First off, the “overwhelmingly favorable press” that Napster has gotten. They reason they’ve gotten it is
because the service has done a lot of positive things, especially giving publicity to little-known artists and
enabling them to make a living (which pretty much kills the “destroying artists’ livelihood” argument dead).

-Timeout. Please tell me who these artists are, and show your suporting evidence for this claim. And please show how “Napster” itself
has done this, and not online music trading in general.

I, for one, have learned about a host of bands that are not played on local radio stations that are really quite good. I download a few songs, and then judge for myself on wether the entire album is worth buying. If it is, I go out and buy it. Then guess what?
A little known band from Stockholm, Sweden or Wellington, New Zealand suddenly gains an international fan.

Now, let’s add to the fact that I’m a DJ. I think the songs are SO cool that I play them in my set. A few people approach me about the tune and ask “Who is this?”.
Guess what? Now these bands have a few more international followers. I even give these people websites where they can purchase these CDs online.

Now… let’s take our multi-billion dollar boys Metallica.
No, we don’t know for a fact that these guys don’t have money troubles, but we do know that we’d all prefer having these kinds of money troubles. It’s not far-fetched to imagine that these guys upgrade their Ferraris every few years.
They’ve made it. They’re internationally known. They sell concert tickets at $100/pop, t-shirts and memorabilia for far more than better-quality merchandise you can get at Sears, for Pete’s sake, and they’re complaining about theft.

They’re the ones complaining. The little bands are not. Limp Bizkit have, on the other hand, realized how Napster has INCREASED their popularity. Which brings hte other argument:
Let’s say I download the latest Limp Bizkit CD from Napster and burn it for my own personal use. (Yes yes, it’s immoral, I know, let’s move on)
But after listening to it and really getting into it, maybe I decide to buy a previous LB CD.
And, “Hey, look, they’re coming into town for a concert!” Guess what I decide to do?
A guy who’s probably only heard of Limp Bizkit up until a few weeks a go decides to spend money on a concert. You could pretty much put me up as a fan, now as a result of my initial curiosity fed by such programs as Napster.

This above scenario HAS occurred with me, but not this year, and well before Napster or Limp Bizkit.

It was with a guy I’d heard of called “Thomas Dolby”. The medium wasn’t Napster, though… it was a cassette deck.

Darqangelle – I’ve seen that argument used a lot, but without statistics to back it up I don’t believe it holds up. Possibly lots of people buy CDs after listening to tracks via Napster; but it’s equally possible that they don’t, and just use it to grab the tracks they like without any intention of paying. Either way, one person’s subjective experience cannot be used as a general rule in this case.