NASCAR: Too Many Changes?

ESPN’s Outside the Lines program ran a piece tonight (Monday) about the Southern 500 moving to November. Also included were the addition of Toyota to the Truck Series (and eventually Winston Cup) and the introduction of Nextel as title sponsor.

So, for all the NASCAR fans out there in Doperville (and I know you’re there,) here’s a few questions:

  1. Should Darlington have lost the Labor Day race date?

  2. Will the new lights being put up at Darlington get the date moved back in 2007?

  3. Is Toyota’s entrance going to be damaging to NASCAR’s fan base in terms of xenophobia about the Japanese entering a purely American series?

  4. Can Nextel do near the job Winston/RJR have done?

  5. What changes should NASCAR make for next year?

Personally, I think that Darlington should have lost the spring date and the schedule should have been shuffled to get a second date to either Texas (night race) or a newly-lit Phoenix. They will, however, get the date back after the lights go up.

Toyota’s entrance is going to be beneficial in the long term, and may be responsible for bringing NASCAR tech closer to current times (i.e. aluminum blocks, fuel injection.)

Nextel’s got some big shoes to fill.

The points system should go to an IRL-type system and award the same points for 35th on back to keep rolling junk heaps off the track.

1.I don’t really care as I think every race should be a night race at Bristol
2.see 1.
3.It won’t damage the fan base. The 'necks will bitch, but the 'necks bitch about everything “new” in NASCAR. I personnaly can’t wait. Now if only Mazda will enter a rotary powered car…
4.I don’t see why not, but as you said, that some big shoes to fill
5.
a.Race in the rain
b.more road corses
c.the point system needs to be changed. Winning should be rewarded much MUCH more as should Poles. Large dropoffs at 6th,11th and no points after say 16th.
d.find a new way to control speed at the superspeedways. If I wanted to watch a 200mph parade, I’d watch F1 on speedvision.
e.make it so that races finish under green as much as possible. They do a pretty good job of this now, but still could be improved upon.
f.less boogady boogady boogady,more Fox,less tnt,more night races

  1. No. ISC sucks and Bruton Smith is the man. As Bruton once said, “Once guys in Brooks Brother’s suits and briefcases start running this sport, it’s over.”

  2. Probably not. History shows that once things change, they don’t change back in Francecar. (see N. Wilkesboro and Riverside.)

  3. Too late to worry about fur’ners. . (see DaimlerChrysler Dodge)

  4. Probably. With the attitudes in the country changes with regards to smoking, this is probably a very good move. NASCAR Nextel Cup is a tongue twister though.

-FIX AERO PUSH!
-Restrictor plate racing is not racing.
-Saturday night races are cool, but they take away from local tracks. Let’s not make it a trend to move races to Saturday night.
-Author a rulebook and publish it. This shit with Mike Helton and Jim Smith just making up the rules as they go is ridiculous.
-The points system does suck. The season is basically over with 11 (?) races to go. Agree with previous posters that more points should be awarded for winning and top fives. 20 or so back in the field shouldn’t get anything.
-Quit trying to be the NFL or the NBA. Part of the appeal of NASCAR is its ruggedness. If people wanted to watch sophisticated/slick racing they would watch the pointy cars.

Good answers folks. Glad to see the NASCAR Dopers are out and about.

Bruce_Daddy, I know things don’t usually change in NASCAR World when dates get moved, but I can’t believe ISC is spending all that money to put lights up if it’s not coming back. Who wants to see a night race in November at Darlington? No one. Mark my words, they’re coming back. Remember, ISC owns California, and NASCAR and ISC are really close.

Yes, the idiots are gonna whine about “them dam furriners,” but they’re gonna whine anyway.

You can get a copy of the rulebook. Just join NASCAR. It’s only $700 or so. Unfortunately, it’s blank, so Helton and Gary Nelson can write it in.

Aero push can’t be fixed right now, short of pulling all the bodies off the cars and starting over. That’s part of the reason they make the rules up.

Plate racing is plate racing. The best solution is to put the wicker bills and roof strips back on, open the plates up to 1 inch and strap 'em in tight.

My prediction: One Saturday night race in the spring. Well down the road, that is.

What if they got hung the bodies back a little further, basically putting more weight in the front? They just had a change this year that moved the bodies one way or the other. :confused: And weren’t they talking about making the “greenhouse” bigger? Would that help? Again, :confused:

And here’s a major :rolleyes:. I just checked the rumored shedule for next year on Nascar.com and there will not be a race within a 3 hour drive between May 30 (LMS) and Oct 16 (LMS)

OK, Bruce, let me get my NASCAR Professor hat out (it’s an old Dale Sr. hat with some oil stains on it) and try to explain aero push.

Basically, there are two types of push or loose. I’m going to assume you understand these terms. Mechanical push or loose is based on weight position and can be adjusted through wedge, moving the track bar or using spring rubbers.

Aero push/loose, on the other hand, depends solely on airflow across the car. A lack of front downforce from airflow over the fenders makes the nose slide and causes aero push. Aero loose comes from a lack of airflow over the spoiler, which decreases rear downforce and slides the back end.

I said all that to say this: moving the bodies won’t help the problem. The design of the cars (and the common template) means that they are very sensitive to airflow, unlike the older cars. The only solution is to redesign all the cars.

The bigger greenhouse (the area between the A-pillar at the windshield and the C-pillar at the rear glass) was tested by NASCAR last season. It was hoped that it would give the drivers more room to get in and out of the cars, as well as decreasing aero sensitivity. Unfortunately, the new cars were wildly unstable, and NASCAR decided to shelve the idea for now.

As for the 2004 schedule, the distance aspect isn’t as bad as it seems. NASCAR doesn’t want too many races close together geographically in the same period of time. At least they have an off weekend in that stretch now. If only they could get Pocono and Michigan’s dates spread out more so we aren’t going back to the same places just a few weeks apart.

OK, Bruce, let me get my NASCAR Professor hat out (it’s an old Dale Sr. hat with some oil stains on it) and try to explain aero push.

Basically, there are two types of push or loose. I’m going to assume you understand these terms. Mechanical push or loose is based on weight position and can be adjusted through wedge, moving the track bar or using spring rubbers.

Aero push/loose, on the other hand, depends solely on airflow across the car. A lack of front downforce from airflow over the fenders makes the nose slide and causes aero push. Aero loose comes from a lack of airflow over the spoiler, which decreases rear downforce and slides the back end.

I said all that to say this: moving the bodies won’t help the problem. The design of the cars (and the common template) means that they are very sensitive to airflow, unlike the older cars. The only solution is to redesign all the cars.

The bigger greenhouse (the area between the A-pillar at the windshield and the C-pillar at the rear glass) was tested by NASCAR last season. It was hoped that it would give the drivers more room to get in and out of the cars, as well as decreasing aero sensitivity. Unfortunately, the new cars were wildly unstable, and NASCAR decided to shelve the idea for now.

As for the 2004 schedule, the distance aspect isn’t as bad as it seems. NASCAR doesn’t want too many races close together geographically in the same period of time. At least they have an off weekend in that stretch now. If only they could get Pocono and Michigan’s dates spread out more so we aren’t going back to the same places just a few weeks apart.

  1. Most definitely. Last year only 44,000 showed up on Labor Day weekend. The only reason the race Sunday sold out was because it will be the last Labor Day race and not mentioned my the media, a huge push to sell deeply discounted tickets.

  2. No. If Darlington isn’t attracting at least 75,000 folks a show by then, they will lose one or both of the races. A few years ago Rockingham was in the same position, they have lost one race and they will probably lose the other one unless attendance significantly improves.

  3. Why should NASCAR change anything? There is nothing wrong with the point system. One team is having a stellar season and no one else can challenge. There was nothing wrong with the point system last year when 3 drivers battle for the championship. Some tracks are going to lose races. Tracks such as Rockingham, Darlington, Pocono, and in some respect, Daytona and Talladega, are old tracks in desperate need of an infusion of cash and changes. We need no more cookie cutter mile and a half tri-ovals. Homestead has taken steps to make the show better, New Hampshire and Chicago need to do the same.

Unless NASCAR can do something about Watkins Glen, road courses will go away. Infineon draws over 100,000, WG struggles to get 35,000. Other tracks such as Kentucky, Milwaukee, Pikes Peak and Nashville want races. A Colorado company is offering to make a race at Pikes Peak one of the 5 highest payout races if NASCAR will bring the Cup series there. A new track has broken ground in Houston and some very wealthy individuals are looking to build a track in the New York City area.

As things stand now, except for changing a few dates for races, you will not see any major changes till the current TV contract expires. Despite huge rating increases since taking over, NBC and Fox have not seen the money pour in like they expected. TV is going to have a big say in how the Nextel Cup series evolves in the next 10 to 15 years.

  1. Go to your local short track. You will see quite a few foreign makes already. With the cars now running being virtually identical except for the engines, it won’t be a big thing unless they dominate the competition. And NASCAR has shown a tendency to change the rules if things start to upset the balance of power among the different makes. That was one of the reasons for the common template used this season for the first time.

  2. Nextel has hired most of the folks from Winston already. Those people know what needs to be done and how to do it. The one thing Nextel can do that Winston couldn’t is target the younger audience. Over the next few years you will see some companies become involved in racing that would not in the past because of the tobacco tie in. Coca-Cola, a longtime NASCAR supporter, it going to spend about 3 times more next year on NASCAR racing just because they will not have the Winston banners to compete with. Winston limited Coke’s involvement because they both use red and white advertising.

racer72, interesting viewpoints.

That said, I can’t believe you don’t think the points system needs work. Kenseth’s championship (and I’m conceding it now, even though I’m a Junior fan) isn’t exactly exciting. The system needs to reward winners a little more and maybe even give some points for qualifying.

As for Toyota, I’m glad they’re coming in, because it’s going to shake things up even more than Dodge. Should help get some international credibility, too.

Watkins Glen isn’t going to lose their race any time soon, since ISC owns it and this year’s race was actually pretty interesting (IMO).

I hope Nextel brings some new companies in, but if the rumors about the severe non-compete clauses in the new contract are true, it may be even harder to find sponsors.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by racer72 *
Unless NASCAR can do something about Watkins Glen, road courses will go away. Infineon draws over 100,000, WG struggles to get 35,000. Other tracks such as Kentucky, Milwaukee, Pikes Peak and Nashville want races. A Colorado company is offering to make a race at Pikes Peak one of the 5 highest payout races if NASCAR will bring the Cup series there. A new track has broken ground in Houston and some very wealthy individuals are looking to build a track in the New York City area.

I’m curious to hear where you are getting your stats on the Glen.
Last I heard they were pulling in 160,00 to 200,000 people. If your talking grandstand seats of 35,000 then you are probably right however at least 3/4 of people are general admission, standing on campers and makeshift bars along the fences. The papers up there a couple of years ago said there were over 60,000 for qualifying on Friday alone.

On the other stuff,

Aero push - scrap the stock cars and make them run modifieds.

MORE road courses, an oval is nice, but a full weekend at a road course is amazing.

Faster plate races, 180 is way too slow.

How come they were only allowing 6 beers to be in my “8 beer, ISC certified cooler” I thought it was for my own “Safety”, I guess 8 beers are explosive,6 aren’t. BIll France is a Billionaire , Jim France is a Billionaire , are they really that desperate for me to buy a 4 dollar Coors light? However Bruton lets me bring in my cooler that still holds 26 beers.

On the points race, There was a link on Jayskis a while back that took the cup series and ran it through the F1, IRL, and Cart point systems and Kenseth still was WAY ahead. Though it does suck watching someone seemingly drive around in circles and still land top fives and top tens. I think Kenseth is blessed, he can’t do a damn thing wrong. I just wish he was a bit more exciting and not in the Roush camp.

So tell me about this template system? Am I correct in understanding that your typical NASCAR racing vehicle now resembles a road vehicle about as much as the “reformed” Doors resembles the original band?

Somebody mentioned international credibility earlier? Look, here’s the thing about international credibility… just like with Rugby evolving into American Football 100 years ago, American motor racing has gone it’s own way, and the rest of the world has gone the other. It’s no big deal - I wouldn’t be too concerned about what us non American’s think.

However, I WILL say this… almost every racing category in the world now has some form of speed restriction implemented. In 1983, F1 banned venturi skirts which ran the length of the cars - and to this day, apparently the skirted F1 cars of 1978-82 pulled the highest G’s of all time - such was their downforce. And a shitload of other restrictions and various technology bans have been implemented ever since. As Max Mosely pointed out a few years ago, “If we allowed every bit of technology that has been banned in F1 to come back into force, we’d easily end up with a 700 kilometer per hour race car and we’d have 10 deaths a year, minimum.” And he’s got a point there.

Same in NASCAR. Who cares if carbies are still used. It’s just a formula now which packs bums on seats. I know that the word “FORMULA” is one which sits most uncomfortably with my American friends when used in the same sentence as Formula One - but it is. Even the concept of an inlet restrictor plate is a form “FORMULA” racing, and what I’m saying here is that NASCAR long, long ago started implementing rule changes (aka formulas) into the mix with a goal of ensuring maximum close racing. And it’s worked too - the crowds are huge.

I remember a few years back some smartass on another messageboard was waxing lyrical about NASCAR and I made the foolish mistake of daring to mention Formula One in some capacity. This guy decided to try and ridicule me by saying “Formula One? Don’t you mean ‘Follow the Leader?’” And I thought to myself, you incredibly silly man! If there’s one category of motor racing which enshrines slipstreaming more than any other, it has to be NASCAR above all else. But you know, like music, we tend to identify who we are by the “major acts” that we choose to be a fan of - and motor racing has long identified that aspect of marketing it seems to me.

But I tell ya what needs to be done. Somehow, the world needs to settle on a formula of some sort - and I don’t give a shit which formula - whether it be pointy cars, or template NASCARS or 1300kg street cars - whatever… but after settling on that formula, a world championship needs to be set up where each country can only enter 3 cars per race, and every single employee in the pit crew of each team has to be from that country. And further, some parts have to be made in each country - maybe the engines - maybe the chassis (I don’t care) - but what I’m getting at is that you’d find yourself with a remarkably international and nationalistic category of motor racing. And it’d be killer.

And mark my words - if it was a form of NASCAR on road courses? We Aussies would give you Americans a right royal fright, let me tell ya.

You sure? If the bodies were moved back then more of the weight would relatively be in the front, right? We’re only talking about a couple of pounds.

And I don’t think all of the “aero push” is a result of lack of air on the front dam, although I think that’s the majority. A lot has to do with how aero sensitive the cars are and the fact that they test and practice and get in the wind tunnel by themselves and then everything changes running with 42 other cars. It’s like driving a boat in another one’s wake.

Makes me glad Richmond is this weekend. :slight_smile: