"National" colours and flag colours not same?

Factual Questions
1

I always assumed that if a state had decided to choose “national” colors, then it would put those colors in its national flag. Or, conversely, that if a state designated a design for its national flag, then the colors used in that flag would de facto be the state’s national colors.

However, the discussion on the Australian flag debate at Wikipedia states:

This statement has me flummoxed. What are “national colors” if they are not the same as the colors on the nation’s flag? And what the hell are a state’s “heraldic colors” and why would they be different from either the national colors or the colors on its flag?

2

From the Wikipedia article on national colours it seems that several countries have national colours not on their flag, e.g., Netherlands is orange and New Zealand is black. In those cases, as well as Australia’s, it may be that too many countries have red white and blue flags.

3

Well, as far as Australia goes, I’d venture that the flag is based on the Union Jack and thus in red/white/blue, signifying its connection to the British Empire/Commonwealth. (Same for NZ, I suppose.) While the green and gold official colors are based on an Australian tree, IIRC the golden wattle (an acacia). So that’s an Australian thing, whereas the flag is a Commonwealth thing.

4

Yes, I see that there are countries that have differing national colors and flag colors and I see that there might be different origins for these colors.

However, neither of these things answer my question. I want to know conceptually, what are national colors if they are not the same colors that appear on the flag? What is the reason for their existence? When are they used?

5

Sports.

Australian national sports teams all wear green and gold, except for certain cricket matches where they wear white like everyone else.

New Zealand’s rugby team is known as the ‘All Blacks’ and they wear black strip. I’m not sure what colour their cricket strip is, but I’d hazard a guess at black with the exception of the matches where everyone wears white (even the umpires).

I should probably know the reason why some cricket matches are played in all white and others aren’t, but I don’t.

6

Yes, when playing test matches the New Zealand cricketers wear white like the members of all other countries’ teams. They do wear black caps though. Hence their name: the Black Caps.

Test matches (i.e. the 5 day games) are played in white. One-day matches are played in coloured uniforms. The New Zealanders play in black for these, except when they’re in retro mood and revert to their delightfully attractive 1970s beige outfits.

7

I don’t have an authoritative answer, but I think my guess will be close to the mark.

Many countries have, in addition to a flag, a coat of arms. The colors of one may not be the colors of the other. In addition, the colors on the shield of the coat may not be the same as those of the torse and mantling (the cloth ring on the helmet which sits above the shield and the fabric that hangs from it, behind the shield, on the full heraldic achievment).

Countries may also have associations that have different colors. For instance, the Union Jack is often considered the flag of the United Kingdom, but is not the flag of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. There is a UK flag that mimics the Arms, being divided quarterly and having the major charge of each kingdom’s coat in each part.

The Union Jack is red, white, and blue, as these are the major colors of the flags based on St. George’s Cross (red cross on white), St. Andrew’s Cross (white saltire on blue) and St. Patrick’s Cross (red saltire on white). But these cross flags aren’t the national flags of the component kingdoms. The flag of England is 3 gold lions on red, so the national colors of England are red and gold, not the red, white, and blue of the Union. Scotland’s flag is also red and gold, being a griffin in a sort of border known as a tressure flory-counter flory, both red, on a gold field. I think the Irish flag is a gold harp on a purple field, though Northern Ireland probably has something of its own I can’t bring to mind (perhaps the Red Hand of Ulster–a red hand on a white shield).

I’m afraid I can’t recall what the colors are for the torse and mantling on the full achievements for England, Scotland, and Ireland.

As I said above, I don’t claim to know for certain this is what is being referred to in the OP. I am also almost certain to have made some mistake in a detail or two. But I think something like this is your answer.

8

[QUOTE=Saltire]
The Union Jack is red, white, and blue, as these are the major colors of the flags based on St. George’s Cross (red cross on white), St. Andrew’s Cross (white saltire on blue) and St. Patrick’s Cross (red saltire on white). But these cross flags aren’t the national flags of the component kingdoms. The flag of England is 3 gold lions on red, so the national colors of England are red and gold, not the red, white, and blue of the Union. Scotland’s flag is also red and gold, being a griffin in a sort of border known as a tressure flory-counter flory, both red, on a gold field. I think the Irish flag is a gold harp on a purple field, though Northern Ireland probably has something of its own I can’t bring to mind (perhaps the Red Hand of Ulster–a red hand on a white shield)./QUOTE]

No, that’s not true. The flags you’ve described are emphatically not the national flags of the countries in question; they’re the ROYAL flags, and are to be used only by the monarch. (They are banners of the royal arms of the countries; the flag that quarters them is the Royal Standard of the Queen of the UK.) The national flags of England and Scotland are indeed the St. George’s Cross and the Saltire.

The Scottish royal flag, in particular, is frequently misused as though it were a civil national flag; but this is incorrect.

(The case of Ireland is a bit confusing; I’m not sure if the red saltire ever was a national flag, and seem to remember vaguely it was just a banner of arms of some prominent family. But Azure a harp Or were indeed the arms of royal Ireland and are now used as the national arms of the Republic of Ireland.)

Another case may make it clearer. The familiar Maple Leaf Flag is Canada’s national flag; the banner of Canada’s coat of arms (defaced with the Queen’s monogram), thus, is the personal flag of the Queen of Canada.

9

Ah, I was just about to put in my tuppenceworth (all right, all right, two cents, you fussy foreign people) re. the Saltire vs. the Lion Rampant as Scottish flags. But MattMcl did so first. Well done, that man. :slight_smile:

10

[QUOTE=CunctatorTest matches (i.e. the 5 day games) are played in white. One-day matches are played in coloured uniforms. The New Zealanders play in black for these, except when they’re in retro mood and revert to their delightfully attractive 1970s beige outfits.[/QUOTE]

Just to expand on this, all cricket is traditionally played in white. Unlike the various codes of football, cricket has no immediate need for a player to recognise friend or foe on the field by what he is wearing. What a particular player is doing, where he is standing, and what equipment he has is enough to know.

Colours were introduced about twenty-five or thirty years ago in an attempt to modernise the game for television, and the “one day” match was a part of this, introduced to speed things up, and to attract new audiences that found the week-long test matches dull. The cricket establishment is very traditional and conservative, and didn’t like this, but $$$ won out in the end, and now One Day cricket is accepted and enjoyed by most. I believe it drew a lot on baseball in its inception.