National inferiority complex or what?

[madsircool]

@Chihuahua

I recall seeing a similar thread on this board some time ago. (The link escapes me.) The gist was that there is a cultural difference between how Americans express pride in their country and how European cultures tend to do it. I don’t perceive it as having anything to do with insecurity… America has dominated the world political and economic spheres for the last sixty-plus years. I think it’s just a cultural difference.

Americans in general are raised with a quasi-religious belief in American exceptionalism. Europeans tend to view their national origin as an accident of geography and assign it little inherent meaning. Some countries, such as Germany, have specific cultural taboos against strong displays of national pride or symbolism, owing to their history. In other European countries, flag-waving displays are associated with ultra-right wing conservatives, whereas similar behavior in the US would be considered normal or even patriotic.

You have never watched any international footie, have you? Euros are just as nationalistic as Americans.

[truthSeeker2]

@PatrickLondon

It’s very variable. I believe the Scandinavian countries, particularly Denmark, are more likely to, say, fly their national flag outside their own homes than, say, the UK, France or Germany. You will see local flags flying as a political gesture in Catalonia (where I’ve also seen the old Spanish republican flag displayed, during the furore before Juan Carlos’s abdication), Scotland or Wales ( and we won’t go into the vexed question of flags or symbols in Northern Ireland). But most British people would think it a bit unnecessary to go in for chest-beating patriotism (“flag-wagging” is a term of disapproval), though the old red, white and blue will come out for celebratory occasions.

But using another country’s flag as a fashion item is probably no more than a perception of what’s cool, or chic, or whatever term you prefer. I should think a large proportion of young people everywhere go through a phase of thinking their home is dull and ordinary and anywhere else is where the action and excitement are. If they choose the US or UK flags to express it, that’s not much more than an indication of marketing success: it isn’t a considered judgement as to whether either country is really superior on any measurable criteria.

agree. Using different flags doesn’t tell much I guess. Here in India, it(strong example of cultural cringe) has to be the over-use of English language and the girly, pretentious accent. Our people use English language even where it is unnecessary ( for ex. even when all the people having the conversation can speak Hindi). Many times, the accents are very pretentious (like thinking they are doing a big thing by speaking in English) and uncool.

[Sampsiceramos]

@madsircool

You have never watched any international footie, have you? Euros are just as nationalistic as Americans.

I hardly think international football matches - hotbeds of frenzied nationalism by virtual fiat - are a reasonable basis for that statement.

Not that I necessarily disagree, mind you - particularly not in the wake of the recent stream of refugees - but international football matches are simply not compelling evidence.

[drewder]

@Sampsiceramos

I hardly think international football matches - hotbeds of frenzied nationalism by virtual fiat - are a reasonable basis for that statement.

Not that I necessarily disagree, mind you - particularly not in the wake of the recent stream of refugees - but international football matches are simply not compelling evidence.

See I don’t think I’ve ever seen people display an American Flag as a result of an international football match or any other sport except perhaps the Olympics.

[Nava]

I have, in the World Cup, but outside of the Olympics, how often do your national teams take place in international competitions?

[msmith537]

@Chihuahua

Americans in general are raised with a quasi-religious belief in American exceptionalism. Europeans tend to view their national origin as an accident of geography and assign it little inherent meaning.

I don’t buy that. People in European countries have just as much national pride as Americans do. And it’s not like we Americans walk around all day wearing our flag and slapping each other on the back about how awesome we are.

[amanset]

@drewder

See I don’t think I’ve ever seen people display an American Flag as a result of an international football match or any other sport except perhaps the Olympics.

I watched the US-Germany football match in the 2002 World Cup in a bar in Stockholm with some Americans. One of them brought a flag. It was perfectly folded in that triangular way, but in the leadup to the game it was occasionally unfurled for a quick fly and then perfectly folded back. They made sure that it never touched the ground.

Just before the game started some Germans appeared with a flag. They put it on the table like a tablecloth and then rested their beers on it. There were audible gasps from members of the American party is was with.

[jtur88]

The appearance of the national flag is highly variable in different countries. I just spent two weeks in Sri Lanka, and never saw their flag once, even though it is possibly the most beautiful flag in the world. But in Thailand, the flag is very commonly seen everywhere.

When traveling, I often ask people, quite bluntly, if they like their country, if they are proud of it. In South America, people are extremely proud of their country. Generally, everywhere I ask, I get a fairly positive reply, even in Sri Lanka, where the flag is not often displayed. In Georgia, people express pride in their country without even being asked, just as part of a normal conversation.

[drewder]

@jtur88

In Georgia, people express pride in their country without even being asked, just as part of a normal conversation.

Georgia the state or the country?

[jtur88]

@drewder

Georgia the state or the country?

Country.

[Chihuahua]

@msmith537

I don’t buy that. People in European countries have just as much national pride as Americans do. And it’s not like we Americans walk around all day wearing our flag and slapping each other on the back about how awesome we are.

Okay. This is just what I’ve heard from other Europeans on this board. They could be wrong.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@msmith537

I don’t buy that. People in European countries have just as much national pride as Americans do.

[As a European,] I disagree. And the numbers back me up. 85% of Americans are “extremely” or “very” proud to be American. 35% of Britons are “very proud.” That’s an enormous gap - one that comfortably swallows every single person in Scotland and Wales (if you want to assume that none of them are “proud to be British”) and still leaves at least a 30% difference.

I am not making a value judgment about national pride. In some ways, I find American attitudes to being American much healthier.

[PatrickLondon]

I’m not not proud of who I am or where I come from. It is what it is, better than a lot of places, could be a lot better still if we did ABC and didn’t do XYZ, will never have the natural advantages of some other countries but has its own natural merits and strengths. I’d imagine a great many people would say the same about their homeland. Where does pride come in?

[nicky]

What you have to understand is that the attitude of western europeans to the usa is disappointment. Yous get a continent stuffed with resources and a free hand to start again yet there you go believing in fucking rubbish like Jesus and Magic Flags.

[jz78817]

@nicky

What you have to understand is that the attitude of western europeans to the usa is disappointment. Yous get a continent stuffed with resources and a free hand to start again yet there you go believing in fucking rubbish like Jesus and Magic Flags.

As if we’re your child and were supposed to live up to your expectations.

[jtur88]

@PatrickLondon

Where does pride come in?

Well, for starters, it’s one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

[Nava]

@PatrickLondon

I’m not not proud of who I am or where I come from. It is what it is, better than a lot of places, could be a lot better still if we did ABC and didn’t do XYZ, will never have the natural advantages of some other countries but has its own natural merits and strengths. I’d imagine a great many people would say the same about their homeland.

I mostly like my homeland and I have a flag that’s about bedsheet-size (I’ve never put it on display, though, it was a present from my brothers), but it’s not as if I built the place. By the time I was born it was already there.

[JakeRS]

Apparently I didn’t make myself clear enough with my question, so I’ll ask again. I am not asking how much people in various countries like their own countries, how much do the French people like France or how much people in various countries wave their own flags,etc.

I am asking this, what do you call people that are irrationally obsessed with a country that has nothing to do with them and I gave a few examples, like the people that only listen to American music and think that the music in their own country is too ,redneck" and backwards, people that put English words in their own language where they aren’t really needed (for example instead of saying ,sorry" in their own language, they say it in English, I’ve seen it a million times here in east Europe).

Basically people that may hate or at least don’t really like their own country, but are obsessed with usa, uk or some other highly developed country, its language and so on, even though they aren’t personally attached to that other country, have never been to it and so on.

[Procrustus]

@JakeRS

Apparently I didn’t make myself clear enough with my question, so I’ll ask again. I am not asking how much people in various countries like their own countries, how much do the French people like France or how much people in various countries wave their own flags,etc.

I am asking this, what do you call people that are irrationally obsessed with a country that has nothing to do with them and I gave a few examples, like the people that only listen to American music and think that the music in their own country is too ,redneck" and backwards, people that put English words in their own language where they aren’t really needed (for example instead of saying ,sorry" in their own language, they say it in English, I’ve seen it a million times here in east Europe).

Basically people that may hate or at least don’t really like their own country, but are obsessed with usa, uk or some other highly developed country, its language and so on, even though they aren’t personally attached to that other country, have never been to it and so on.

I’m not sure it’s because they’re “irrationally obsessed” with another country. They might just think it makes them sound/look cool. It happens in the U.S. too. “Excuse my French, but that’s fucking crazy” is something you might hear. Also, Excusez-moi is sometimes said, as is Gesundheit and kindergarten.

Furthermore, I see no problem with a fondness for American music. We had a whole British invasion here that lasted for years.

[drewder]

@nicky

What you have to understand is that the attitude of western europeans to the usa is disappointment. Yous get a continent stuffed with resources and a free hand to start again yet there you go believing in fucking rubbish like Jesus and Magic Flags.

Well never forget we got both those things from you all, we just do it better. But seriously there is no reason to believe that our culture is separate from our success. Lots of places are stuffed with resources but there is only one USA.