Nature vs. Nurture (or) Born to be Bad

How much of our personality is because we were born that way?

Are some people just born to be bad, or is it mostly because of how they were raised?

For example, Ted Bundy was raised by a loving family and was never abused. Cite: http://www.crimelibrary.com/bundy2/early.htm He had a few less than ideal parts of his youth, but then don’t we all?

Also serial killers Jeffrey Dahmer and Randy Kraft both came from happy homes.

How did they go so wrong?

Also, my children were all born with very distinct personalities, and within a week after their births I could tell a great deal about what kind of person they would grow up to be.

So where does nurture come in?

autz you seem to have a pretty generous notion of what an ideal family life consists in. You also seem to assume that physical abuse is the only kind of treatment that can result in serious emotional disturbance. From your own link on Bundy we have a few details that seem not to have registered your radar. For example,

“Shortly after Ted’s birth he and his mother moved back to Philadelphia to live with [his mother’s] parents who he would later refer to as his mother and father. This charade allowed Eleanor to escape any harsh criticism and prejudice for being an unwed mother. Theodore grew up referring to his own mother as his older sister.”

and

“[His mother] and [her new husband] were to have four other siblings who Ted spent much of his time baby-sitting after school. Ted never really took to his new father who tried unsuccessfully to raise him as his own son, by including him in camping trips and other father-son activities. Ted had his own ideas and thought of himself more as a Cowell…”

“As a youth, Ted was terribly shy and was often teased and made the butt of pranks by bullies in his junior high school. Regardless of
the sometimes humiliating experiences he suffered [he had good grades]”

Now I’m not suggesting that what we have here is a a surefire pattern for “nurturing” a serial killer. But what we do have is an intelligent kid who seems to have had to contend with his and mother’s shame, with being or feeling alien towards his stepfather, with being separated from peers by onerous childcare duties and by teasing/bullying. (It also sounds, from this brief snippet, like the mother may have been depressed through much of her life, but that could be me reading into some unexplained details.) In any case, lots of isolation and disconnect from the family; humiliation at school. I’m not a psychologist by any means but that sounds like the kind of stuff you often read about in the profile particular to serial killers.

As I see it, it would be pretty difficult to overstate the importance of nurture in emotional and–just as important–intellectual development.

I don’t doubt for a second that certain aspects of our personalities our give to us by nature; but what we do with them is entirely the product of nurture. Consider that everything that we learn, everything experience we have, all of our friendships, all that we read, and see, and do from the time we are born on–is “nurture.”

Are you really ready to discount all of that just because you could recognize differences in temperament in your infant children? (If you think back, btw, I doubt you recognized those differences as soon as one week after birth, unless you attribute a great deal to how much a baby eats, sleeps, and cries :wink: ).

To put the question a different way, what kind of people do you think your children might have grown up to be had they been raised as 9th century Vikings? or the adopted children of a Hollywood celebrity? or factory children with no schooling? Do you feel certain that they would be exactly the people you know them to be even if the environment that you helped to create for them had not existed and some other took its place?

What Mandelstam said. There are cases where a child is taken from a “bad” environment and put into a more nurturing environment, and that bad kid turns out just fine–even though people didn’t think it could be possible. I think even a high IQ wouldn’t make much of a difference if the kid is in a bad, non-nurturing environment.

I never said his faily life was ideal. But I don’t consider not getting along with your step father or and getting teased at school to be really traumatic. This sounds like a fairly average childhood. Many kids had it better, but many had it a lot worse.

He was raised by grandparents who loved him and treated him well.

Of course if someone like my son were raised by Vikings he would act differently, but would those be superficial differences, or deep personality changes? My son would be better at sailing, be more used to cold weather, and have different goals for what he wants to be when he grows up. But would he still be outgoing, sensitive, and happy-go-lucky?

So, my question is, how much of our personality is inborn, and how much of it is affected by our environment?

Bundy’s childhood is quite controversial so it doesn’t really make for a good example in the nature nurture debate. Some say his grandfather was an extremely violent man who hit his wife and generally terrorized those in the home so the idea that he grew up in a loving household is subject to question. He also only lived there until he was 4 years old though by most reports was quite unhappy to be unwillingly moved from their home at 4 years old. By many reports he was already exhibiting antisocial behavior at this age.

I tend not to see these things as simple cause and effect. Certain genetic factors that have no clear connection to behavior could easily combine with social factors to produce problematic behavior. Left handedness, according to a study I read many years ago has a slight correlation to criminality, perhaps being just a tiny factor that makes the world a bit tougher to contend with. Physical attractiveness, on the other hand, generally provides for easier socialization with peers.

I look at my own kids for an example of how even gross problems in child rearing can have diverse results. My wife began turning into a monster after we had kids, by the time my oldest was 3 she was being screamed at from morning till night often for no reason at all. She developed a host of predictable behavioral and emotional problems as a result.

The youngest was subject to the same treatment in even greater intensity because unlike the eldest, who would go glassy eyed, she would fight back. While the oldest seemed to give up on the concept that her behavior mattered she became a really sweet kid almost preoccupied with proper behavior.

Perhaps there were inborn personality traits involved but if so I doubt they were the same traits that now most strongly distinguish them. As well, once personality traits have begun to manifest themselves they become a major contributing factor in the environment the child continues to grow up in through the effect on interaction with others. My two kids live in the same house but completely different worlds that will continue to shape their personalities.

This question has been debated for a long time and there are schools of thought for both sides. Many experts believe and I agree that it is the first two years that are the most important in the development of a child. It all figures in the mix however and to say that it is all inherited or all because of environment is not a useful thing to do.

Its mainly genes but nurture can have a strong effect and so can the genes depending on which wins out.

Bundy was a mutation, some people have 6 toes and bundy was mad, sometimes very kind and caring people are born but they dont end up in the news for going off and becoming a missionary do they ?

I think very good genes can overcome a bad environment and very bad genes will show up even in a great environment but for those ‘general’ combinations of genes its a mix.

Don’t forget once your born your genes are fixed so its best to make the environment as best as possible no matter what the genes are.

dude, what exactly does “its mainly genes [sic]” mean here?

Like kniz, I believe that who we are is a complex blend of genetic and environmental development, so I don’t at all disagree with the thrust of your post. But for that very reason why assume that it’s “mainly” genes? Indeed, if one must make an assumption, why not assume just the opposite: that it’s “mainly” environment since it’s impossible to determine the precise extent of anything else? To take your own example, what evidence do you have that Bundy was genetically mad? Even if it’s the case that he was genetically predisposed towards “madness” there is no reason to be believe that he–or any other person with no known physiological illness–was born inevitably mad. On the other hand, one can see in Bundy’s life a set of circumstances that could have produced the kind of malformed recognition of other people’s reality, the kind of anger-inducing humiliation, that typically is found in the lives of serious sociopaths. It doesn’t matter that many other people have comparable experiences without becoming serial killers. That is, we can’t, as autz may be doing, deduce that just because not every troubled child becomes a serial killer that that means that serial killing is down to a “mainly” genetic component. That’s just poor deductive analysis. We might just as easily assume that just because not every intelligent, ambitious child with a strong leadership and business environment becomes a CEO that there must be a gene for becoming a CEO.

Autz, I’d like to say more on your reply to the Vikings example but I can’t now as I’m going away. If the thread lives passed the next 48 hours I’ll return to it.

In any of the cases mentioned, there is only the roughest outline and speculation on the “pre-history” of the person in question. It is virtually impossible to account for all the “environmental” factors that could have contributed to their psychological development. After all, it’s not unheard of for people to have happy homes but have been molested by near-relatives, and to have those molestations either unknown or unacknowledged by other family members.

We are cursed by 1.) to many parameters to ever quantify, much less qualify, and 2.) difficulties in objective analysis: the most significant moment to the potential killer may seem, to someone else, laughably mundane.

In my own experience, some of the most traumatic, behavior shaping events occured in the space of a few minutes, and were the sorts of situations that others would have shrugged off (and did, AMOF) as “everyday youth experiences”.

In general, I’d tend to assume the opposite of the OP: that genetics plays only the smallest part of the makeup of “bad”, and that nurture/environment are the real forces that shape the outcome.

autz: A significant factor that you forgot to assess in mentioning your children is your influence in shaping their lives. For example, you knew that they were not going to be abused by you, or anyone with your complicity.

I also want to expand on something that EchoKitty said:

Serial Killers run the gamut from socially inept, to gregarious, from “slow”, to brilliant. Certainly these parameters have no effect on their psychopathy (or is it sociopathy - can’t remember).

Nature, evolution etc. works on hereditry hence genes are so important.
True you cannot account for all environmental factors but look at siblings, roughly the same environment but they can turn out totally different.

All our faces are different, why not accept the brain may be wired up differently as well ?

If bundy did have some bad environmental factors, so did others, why did he go so loony and they didnt ?

I advise you er, read books on genetics.

Interesting you should bring this topic up. I had a related topic on the SDMB before the hackers got to it.

I said I wondered if there was a medicine that could suppress violent tendencies. Such a medicine, I pointed out, could be discovered by accident first–before it was even know how exactly it worked. I even suggested someone share my theory with someone in some research medical field. Not much came of that thread, though. And now I don’t know where it is–so I can’t hyperlink here.

I guess if such a medicine is hypothetically possible (and I believe that it is), it would kind of support the “nature” part of your argument, wouldn’t it? Hmmm…

:slight_smile:

dude -

Could you explain the significance of “nature is not pc - it just is” ?

I don’t understand where political correctness is entering this discussion. If anything is politically correct, it’s the “natural” argument, as it removes responsibility from the individual. “I can’t help it that I slaughter babies in their sleep - I was born that way

Genetics gives us the wiring: how the wiring is used is based on experience. Your house may be wired before you get it, but your own behavior within the house determines which circuits get used the most. It is proven that there is a positive-reinforcement effect on neural pathways: that is, the more they are used, the more they tend to be used. This example alone proves that environment and personal experience has an effect on the physical wiring of the brain.

The environmental argument does not state that everyone going through the same types of experiences is going to end up the same, ergo to argue that others may have had bad environments yet did not turn into serial killers is to miss the point. The nurture argument is merely that nurture has a significant effect on the psychology of an individual.

To reiterate from my first post: how can you hold that environmental events are not factors if you can’t even quantify them? I challenge you (generic) to conceive of a study that will isolate the genetic component from the environmental component in such a way that it can be scientifically tested and it’s relative importance in behavior quantified. Unless you can do that, there is no behavioral outcome that doesn’t have a possible environmental explanation. (It seems to me that in a psychological manner, Heisenberg’s principle also comes into effect).

I’ll get a book on genetics (can you recommend one that deals specifically on the subject of behavior?) if you pick up and read “Mind Hunter: Inside the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit” by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker" (assuming, perhaps erroneously, that you haven’t).

Yes, Jim B., a medicine might tend to prove nature over nurture, but consider that morphine is a depressant regardless of someone’s genetics, personalities or psychological disorders. Medicines can have a behavioral affect without bringing genetics into the equation.

Almost like a whale ( search amazon ) is a good place to start, not specific to genetics but will start you off.
I tell you what is really scary.
your going to like this…
how come no one teaches birds to build nests or beavers to build dams but they can do it…
some combination of genes there
and YES if you take the babies away from the parents they still know how to do it

makes you think

Check the mirror - I think you dripped some sarcasm on yourself.

True: in the wild kingdom some skills are genetically coded.
But testing a creature’s ability to build nests or dams is a relatively easy test to conceive of. Beavers and birds are not humans, and our behavior is far more complex than either.

Now assume, for the sake of argument, that dam-building behavior in beavers can be equated to psychopathic behavior, wouldn’t there be a history of psychopathic behavior in all serial killer’s families? And would a history prove a genetic link, or just suggest consistently learned behavior?

dude, Sorry but serious illogic here…

You wrote: “[H]ow come no one teaches birds to build nests or beavers to build dams but they can do it…”

Well, for the same reason that no one teaches human infants to breathe, to observe their world, to cry when hungry, or to bond with caring others.

In other words, your question is basically irrelevant since the debate is about the relative importance of genetics vs. environment in individuals. No one has so much as denied that genetics don’t figure for individuals–much less for discrete species–so why bring up an undisputed fact about the latter to make a point about the former?

MLC, nice to make your acquaintance: it’s a pleasure to come across a new poster with a strong genetic predisposition towards good syntax ;).

autz, are you still in this and ready to talk Vikings?

I think I may be able to interject a little bit more of science into this debate. It is about a TV show I saw a couple yrs. ago. They were talking about the human brain–and more specifically the 4 Types of Memory. They are Short Term, Long Term, Ancestral, and Eidetic. They defined Eidetic as “photographic” memory for some reason. And I think we can all figure out what Short Term and Long Term mean.

But Ancestral. That refers, I believe, to the memory that humans do indeed pass down to their children. Take chewing for example. Do you have any idea how you chew. Believe me, it is more complicated than you realize. And babies are born with certain natural reflexes–like the tendency to grasp–something they needed to know when we still swung from trees.

I don’t know if this discussion is still going. But I just thought I’d interject that info into it. :slight_smile:

Actually, I think this is an interesting point. How come Ted Kaczynski mailed bombs to people and his brother David didn’t?

http://www.unabombertrial.com/archive/1997/011997-2.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/una65.htm

Jim: “And babies are born with certain natural reflexes–like the tendency to grasp–something they needed to know when we still swung from trees.”

Well I missed that TV program Jim, but thanks for the science. I’m guessing you that just want to reflect on the awesomeness of human biology, right? Because you wouldn’t be suggesting, here, that the fact that humans have natural reflexes means that certain of them have an inborn reflex to be serial killers.

DDG, in my vague recollection of the Unabomber story, he did seem very unlike a serial killer of the Bundy variety. More like someone with an axe to grind.

Although this may have nothing at all to do with Kaczynski’s situation, I think it’s important to bear in mind that things happen to people over the course of a life for all kinds of reasons. I used to be very close to someone over a period of years. He was in some ways different from his two brothers–less outgoing and more cerebral–but all were “normal.” In his mid-30s he had a bad experience with a relationship and it had repercussions on his job. He became very self-destructive; depressed but unwilling to help himself; on the verge of becoming homeless. Although I’ve lost touch, I think his family fears that he may at some point disappear. I can’t imagine my friend being violent: so that’s not my point. But my point is that he showed no signs of being self-destructive either prior to this misfortune. Looking at him when I last saw him, it was pretty shocking.

I mention this only because someone might say, the two brothers are so successful and normal; all three were loved by their parents. Something genetic must have accounted for this one being so self-destructive.

But I don’t believe that. At the same time, I believe that if the bad experiences hadn’t occured, that none of this self-destructive potential would ever have surfaced.

For reasons not entirely unrelated I believe that if the infant Ted Bundy had been raised under different circumstances that he would not have become a serial killer.

Some people are simply bent differently, behaviorally and intellectually by their wired genetic predispositions. These predispositions can express themselves neutrally or negatively depending on the context and opportunities of the surrounding environment. Some people’s predispositons will make them monsters even in relatively benign environments and others will only have these predispositions expressed when the environment is especially negative or stressful.

Bad can come from good. It’s just the nature of human animals in a complex society.

You know astro’s post kind of jogged my memory a little bit about something. I took this psychology course–in comm. college naturally. But they touched upon something interesting. One researcher did theorize that certain traits are in fact in-born. No, I’m not talking about violence. They were typically more prosaic than that. I just remember one was kinetic activity–some babies are more active than others, starting in the womb in fact.

Most of the experts I have ever talked about violence claim it is a complex social phenomenon.

But… My own experience–with my dog. My dog is a lovely creature. She is sweet and gentle and joyful. But a couple of yrs. ago she attacked my other dog without any provocation. An animal behavioralist said to not worry, it was a genetic thing. He said if we kept her away from the other dog, everything should be alright–which it has been, even till now. He also said something else interesting. He attempted to startle my dog. And she reacted immediately. He said that is one of the signs of this condition–strong reaction to this type of stimuli. I don’t know what that means. But it started me on my theory that human violence could be treated with a medicine some day. I’ve only had mixed results with the people I’ve shared it with though.