Navy: Large expensive capital ships vs. many smaller ships

FDR wanted lots of escort carriers rather than fewer full sized carriers, but due to production capacity, we got all we wanted of both.

It seems to me the real point of the gold plated warships is that they have a capability (versatility is sometimes a capability in and of itself) you cannot get with a cheaper vessel.

My beef is with 5 billion dollar carriers, 2 billion dollar bombers 3 billion dollar attack subs (prices are approximate with full outfitting, does not include, tax, license, registration and destination charges) is that all of these things are warships (or planes), meaning that they will come under fire. That is a lot of moola down the tubes when one goes down.

Wouldn’t we be better off with smaller, cheaper, more specialized weapons?

Well… That’s kinda the point: To sail in harm’s way.

The thing of it is, they are all rather specialized. Aircraft carriers are wonderful things for power projection. They can be in trouble areas fairly quickly, and they have a long reach with their aircraft. It would be difficult to launch aircraft if there is no place to launch them from. Yes, they’re big. But it’s impossible to launch and recover aircraft from a vessel the size of a WWII escort carrier (aka “baby flattop”). We could follow the lead of other countries and use V/STOL fighters like the Harrier, but a Harrier is no match for an F-14 or F-18. The idea of fighting is to win, and to do so with the fewest losses possible. Modern fighter aircraft are so expensive anyway that it’s doubtful there would be “massed attacks” of enemy fighters. It’s better and cheaper to use top-of-the-line aircraft.

Submarines are also specialized. “Boomers” were built to carry nuclear weapons quietly. Fast attack subs were built to counteract boomers. Again, they are very expensive. But if you’re fighting a war do you want a less advanced missile platform that can be relatively easily detected, or the best you can get and one that is hard to detect?

With the end of the Cold War, our Naval forces have declined, but we’re still the best in the world. Do we want to get rid of the ships we have, and build new ones? These things are already paid for. Heck, CVN-65 (USS Enterprise) is like 40 years old!

there is one warship I’d like to see built: A submarine capable of operating more effectively in shallow waters, such as the Persian Gulf. Our subs are longer than the Gulf is deep, and I think smaller subs would be useful for littoral warfare.

Well, in the case of capital ships, we don’t lose them very often. No carriers lost since WWII. Last sub lost in 1968 (believed to be due to an accident). Now aircraft–that’s another story. :stuck_out_tongue:

I would note that every time we set out to build something that is smaller and cheaper, it is never as inexpensive as planned. For example, the F-16 was supposed to be a very low-cost aircraft, and while it was cheaper than the more-capable F-15, at $26.9 million a copy (cite), I wouldn’t exactly call it cheap.

In the submarine world, the Seawolf program was cancelled after 3 boats due to the “peace dividend” to be recognized with the conclusion of the Cold War. Instead, less costly NSSNs were to be built, which became the Virginia-class SSN.

From the same site:

So we have a sub that is not as capable as the Seawolf, but at least the replacement will be cheaper, right?

In short, we would have been better off sticking with the more-capable Seawolf class. As far as littoral (coastal) warfare is concerned, the third Seawolf-class sub, the USS Jimmy Carter (SSN-23) is being outfitted for this.

Still reading? Check out the A-12 fiasco. Talk about moola down the tubes!

well the US loves its big power projecting items but sometimes they forget in desert storm the American carrier group had to borrow dutch mine sweepers , they could just follow the russian lead with that Kusanov thingie the Su-33s are more than a match for F-18s and F-14s and they take off on a ski ramp ,
also they are defended from TOP GUN (laughs) exocet style threats the carrier cheif was so afraid of the phanalax air defense system can shoot down most (thats MOST ie not including the SS-N-22 Sunburn as its too fast) incomming missiles and threats , this is also suplemented by AEGIS supported air defense systems which makes attacking a US fleet very difficult

the JSF a stealthly almost F-16 looking bomber is in development predicted about 20-25 million , but hey if you want beef with prices (good thing I am not an american paying those prices) is the F-22 @ $180 million each inc development costs its hot but stealth is justified by the presence of SAMs and AAA , with stealth SAM radars are semi nullified still the S-3/400 SAM is reputed to be able to detect stealth aircraft.

They can burn this money because the US has a massive population base to tax that has money to tax in the first place ,

uh forgot my point , many things start out specialised like the F-16 was supposed to be a close defense fighter ditto the F-15 , then they improved it a bit and made it capable of dropping bombs and stuff , and hey its a show of financial and military power (have you ever see a Nimitz class carrier? its big)

I do realize of course that the F-16 and F-15 are USAF aircraft, not Navy. The OP did bring up “2 billion dollar bombers,” though, which can only be a USAF aircraft (the B-2).

As long as I’m mentioning other services, though, consider the tank. Would you prefer to have an expensive M1A1 Abrams tank, or the much cheaper Soviet-made T-72 used by the Iraqis?

Here’s a hint: in one of the first battles of the Gulf War, some 200 Iraqi T-72 tanks were destroyed without the loss of a single U.S. M1A1.

Depite Stalin’s quote that “quantity has a quality all its own,” events in Iraq did not bear him out.

reading in Proceedings where the navy was thinking about a
pontoon style carrier for the future but I don't guess that
will happen..

one thing you have to keep in mind is that the navy puts
a lot into the ability of a ship to take damage and still
be able to function.. tests have shown that bigger is better
when it comes to missile hits.. I saw on a television
special that our carriers can take TEN hits and still not
sink.. that's very impressive, we ran damage control drills
for far less than that..

because carriers are the "flagships", sort of, of the navy's
reaching out and pounding someone, I wouldn't think they'd
want smaller ships.. keep in mind that we have far better
capable enemies than Iraq or blah blah

believe me, the navy learns lessons BIGTIME, like the
Forrestal disaster, it isn't likey to put up with designs
that will become a problem in themselves.. anyway, they're
now using them as platforms for other things

This brings up the eternal question of strategic versus tactical assets.

This debate–and it is a debate–was probably best summarized in Walter Kross’ Military Reform: The High-Tech Debate in Tactical Air Forces. Yes, those with a shaky grasp of analogy will be pursed at my using the Air Force example, but hear me out, please.

Two historical examples that reformers (cheaper, better, faster folks who, as Chronos once pointed out, would have been better served to settle with two out of the three) use are the P-38 versus the P-51 in World War II and the Me-262, also from the Big One. The P-38, being a twin-engined fighter, was approximately twice as expensive to maintain as the P-51, and it was eventually replaced by the Mustang in the European Theatre, with far better success. The P-51 also shot down a fair number of superior Me-262s due to their large numbers and their ability to loiter around the extra-long landing strips that Me-262s had to use when they returned from combat, fuel-strapped and unable to defend themselves (Chuck Yeager managed to take out a 262 in this fashion).

Bullshit, say the bells-and-whistlers. The P-38 was worth every penny ever sunk into it for one reason alone: P-38s were the only American aircraft that were in place and had the range and the performance to guarantee the assassination of Yammamoto Isoroku, brainchild and executor of Japanese naval strategy in 1941-1943. Americans learned through cracking Japanese communiques that Yammamoto would be paying a visit to the western Solomons, and made sure a squadron of P-38s were there to finish his career. With his death, say some, Japan’s last chance of orchestrating a negotiated peace with America ended, for Yammamoto had no strategic equal in Japan.

A second argument the high-tech folks give is the Japanese disaster at Midway. In addition to losing four fleet carriers in that battle, Japan also lost 90 of the best–and most expensive to train–pilots in the world, in large part because their ships were sunk from under them and the Japanese were not very concerned with recovering the ditched pilots. That loss, combined with the pilot losses inflicted upon the Shokaku and Zuikaku at the prelude to Midway, Coral Sea, represented an entire graduating class of Japanese naval pilots. Japan was to go on to replace its carrier and aircraft losses at Midway, but it never replaced its expert pilots. In contrast, American concern for the safety of its pilots included expensive armored cockpits, self-sealing fuel tanks and extensive search and rescue missions, which kept first-class American pilots in the air all the time. Techies believe the benefits justified the expense.

It’s difficult to believe that American fleet carriers in WWII were designed to be expendable, but in a small way they were. Great expense was saved by giving American flattops wooden decks, and allowed more fleet carriers to be produced. (A side benefit proved to be that Japanese armor-piercing bombs often penetrated below the vulnerable refueling and rearming deck, often saving the ships from the sorts of fires which sealed the fates of the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu at Midway–a worst case scenario. That, however, was an unintended benefit.) British carriers, which joined the Americans at Okinawa, were smaller but pound-for-pound more expensive than American carriers. But due to their rebar decks, they fared far better at the hands of Japanese conventional planes and kamikazes than did American carriers such as the Bunker Hill and Franklin.

In a similar fashion, large carriers have the ability to operate independently, being able to simultaneously attack and defend themselves and their task force with combat air patrol, while CVE-style (which were styled Combustible, Vulnerable, and Expendable by their unhappy keepers) carriers must cluster in larger groups just to provide an adequate defense. As Anticay suggested, with ships, bigger appears to mean safer, while with aircraft the plane that cannot be seen on radar is much more likely to return from its mission. However, the loss of even one strategic carrier, bomber, or pilot is a dramatic loss which cannot be easily replaced.

There does not appear to be a happy medium except in the extravagant case of relying upon both, which of course is more expensive than either alone.

This question is hard to apply to the entire navy. If you want a nice, specific answer, you’re going to have to give a nice, specific question.

And… bigger doesn’t always mean more expensive. The new dd214 destroyers cost about 500 mil a piece, compared to upgrading the MUCH more capable iowa battleships for a quarter of that. (And only slightly more ‘running costs’)

Good post Johnny.

PS: Good one too, Sofa King.

Kinda reminds me of virtually the same thing happening on the Enterprise in the late 60s, but not many people have heard about it. We sure learned our lesson. Kinda like we learned to keep the Germans in line after WWI.

Our big carriers do just about everything. They are the ultimate in versatile. But one nuke wipes out all the carrier group. I hope it is hard to do.
Bullshit, say the bells-and-whistlers. The P-38 was worth every penny ever sunk into it for one reason alone: P-38s were the only American aircraft that were in place and had the range and the performance to guarantee the assassination of Yammamoto Isoroku, brainchild and executor of Japanese naval strategy in 1941-1943. Americans learned through cracking Japanese communiques that Yammamoto would be paying a visit to the western Solomons, and made sure a squadron of P-38s were there to finish his career. With his death, say some, Japan’s last chance of orchestrating a negotiated peace with America ended, for Yammamoto had no strategic equal in Japan.

And let’s remember that Yammamoto told the War Cabinet that they had to win the war in six months or lose it in any event. Yammamoto was as plain as he could be in telling them they couldn’t possibly win, yet war they wanted.

The F-22 is an excellent example. 10 times the cost of the F-16, but supposedly fulfilling all roles, even mini-bomber.

A Great Debate if I ever saw one. So as much as I hate lose the weapons threads since this board possesses so much expertise on that stuff, I’m sending it over there.

Some Navy men I know have a novel opinion:
The size of new ships is related to the average age of the officers.

In wartime, many men are promoted quickly through the ranks, to the point that they can influence the next set of warships. Each wants a personal ship to command, so many are built.

In peacetime, the officers’ ranks age and they have already found the glory of a single smaller ship, so they vie for ever larger ones to strive for, to continue rising in rank.

Essentialy you would be trading cost in dollars for cost in lives, not a good tradeoff. I forget who said it, “you cannot be a superpower on the cheap.”

The money we spend on things like the B-2 relates directly to its survivability in a high threat environment. Carriers are just floating cities with huge capabilities, can’t make them cheap or small. Power projection was already mentioned, good point. Cheap fighters will just get shot down.

One more thing about these large expensive weapon systems is the fact they do exist. What I mean by this is that in time of war we need them now and not in the couple of years that it would take to build them. Sure we could get by 99% of the time with escort carriers and/or no carriers but in a pinch you can’t order one from the local shipyard to be delivered tommorrow.

Apples and oranges, at least pick tanks from the same generation and remember that we’re talking for the same relative spending. So let’s try that as “Would you prefer to have one expensive M1A1 Abrams or THREE Soviet-made T-80s?”. That’s a very tricky question, and it largely depends on what kind of a war you expect to fight and how your other assets stack up in support. Both can be extremely dangerous and the OP has an excellent point that by concentrating all your eggs in fewer baskets, you have a much lower tolerance to attrition. The final years of WW2 Germany are an excellent example of this. When it comes to ground warfare, it’s a close thing but I would go with quantity over quality.

(By the way, the bulk of the Iraqi force was not made up of T-72s, but even older pieces of crap and they didn’t have the slightest clue of how to use tanks, either tactically or strategically. They did not fail because they had older equipment, they failed for a multitude of reasons.)

However the OP was in reference to the Navy. The answer is: because it’s the best way we can deal with modern naval warfare. A navy based on supercarrier battlegroups is vastly more effective than any other possible force of equal or lesser monetary value. If you are the biggest fish in the ocean, which we are and have been since WW2, then you want to concentrate your power as tightly as you can, so as to completely crush any possible opposition. To use a poor analogy, you want Death Stars that noone can hope to challenge. By forcing the enemy to skulk about or risk destruction, you gain total control of the oceans.

However, against an opponent of greater total strength, it is a terrible risk, as any one carrier can be easily overwhelmed and destroyed and thus you lose a massive part of your total combat effectiveness. This is one reason why the Russian Navy has never spent much effort on carriers. If you’re not #1, your best solution is to avoid capital ships and develop specialized attack craft and tactics that keep your forces dispersed and preferably hidden (preventing any major losses to the enemy) until the moment you can, however briefly and in however limited a scope, overwhelm the enemy. You have to take what victories you can and be ready to take losses, because even if you manage to beat a Death Star, it’s going to kill a looot of your forces in the process.

Which brings us to the psychological factor of the quality-vs-quantity debate. While a military comprised of many individually-lesser components may have as much or more total strength, and be better able to absorb any individual losses, they’re also much more likely to take losses, especially if they’re ever forced to fight on a level of parity with higher-quality equipment (something the higher-quality side is always trying to force) You have to be willing to accept that many people will, MUST die in order for the group as a whole to succeed.

That’s not a particularly American philosophy, especially in the last several decades. Military losses are intellectually realized as the nature of war, but there’s always the feeling that, if only they had tried a little harder, if only they were better prepared, if only the technology was a little better, everyone would have made it back home. Casualties aren’t really accepted as a fact of life, everyone expects to survive, and expects all of their friends to survive.

It’s really a topic with many levels.

group.. some of the ships are going to be over 100 miles
away.. even the closest ships to a carrier may be 4 or 5 miles or more.. where they are depends on what they are
doing.. a ship 4 miles from where the bomb goes off can
survive

It wasn’t actually the “Navy” making that proposal, but the analyst from whom G W Bush borrowed his ideas of the “new” military.

Rumsfield’s job was to sell the Navy on the concept of a lot of small, high-speed, micro carriers (among many other things) and his utter failure to successfully deal with the Joint Chiefs, or any ranking officers, in his first eight months is the reason that, prior to 9/11, there were pundits on both the left and right taking bets as to whether he would be canned before Christmas or allowed to resign on his first anniversary.

What about the idea that our Navy should consist of “stealth” ships? These would be small, destroyer sized ships, with very low superstructures (decks would be awash), and very heavy armament (high velocity 3" gun and missiles). Propulsion would be all-electric, and crew size 30-34 men. For what we spend on a fleet carrier, we could have hundreds of these small ships, which would be more that adequate to sink a russian battle group, or attack the shores of an enemy nation.

does.. it's not there for taking out Russian battle groups.
it also has reconnaissance capabilities and anti-sub
warfare and also serves as a large hospital and a storage
warehouse from bombs to food to fuel to lots of stuff..

trust me, they know what they're doing.. smaller ships
wouldn't have the capacity for all of these functions

remember, nobody saves the navy's ass but the navy