We have more to fear from the KKK in the US than from the NAZIs. Not that I’d support banning either.
YogSosoth, would have supported banning the Communist Party during the Cold War in the US since unlike the Nazis today they actually had a superpower backer to promote domestic subversion.
One more guy lobbying for “political rights and ballot access laws” is a good thing, anyway.
I disagree. I believe with a neutral or supportive government, ideological groups can flourish just as with government pressure, ideological groups can be restricted or mitigated.
We don’t have to look far. In our recent history, when laws were written to support the rights of minorities, when people stood up to unjust rules and laws, when mass support was organized in favor of civil rights, generally, that movement can progress forward. Yes, I realize that we were talking about more freedoms in this case, more progressive legislation, and a world culture with momentum moving towards equal rights for minorities and not against it as in the Nazi example. But it goes to show that government can affect what people believe. It is of course still possible to succeed without government support, but its easier with it.
Back to Nazis, we have a hateful group that almost nobody likes, that pretty much everyone thinks should go away and never come back. The argument is whether government should be used to help that along. I think it should be, and I’d support certain exceptions made to existing rules to make sure that happens at a faster rate. Ban the ANP from being able to lobby, ban them from holding official power. Ban outright use of their hateful symbols and using the worlds of their past leaders as inspiration. I’m not naive enough to think that will make all Nazis suddenly change their minds, but without overt demonstrations and legal support of their ideology, it will make it that much harder for them to claim legitimacy. Look, I know they’ll go underground, but the question isn’t whether forcing them underground will make them more powerful, the question is if it will hinder them if we don’t provide them cover above ground. I think that’s a perfectly good way of getting rid of them. In fact, if Nazis were of any significance, they’d be running both an above ground operation and an underground operation. One does not have to be “forced” underground, one can do both.
No, I think you want for me to have it mean the same to me as it does to you, but it doesn’t. Even in an anarchy, we do not have true freedom. With no government, we’d still be slaves to power and whoever has the most. In a small government communal society, we’d still be free within the confines of a community. It is enough for me to say that America is free but bans certain things, but we are still pretty damn free. There are plenty of laws I don’t agree with, but they are not egregious enough for me to make some hyperbolic statement and accuse others of not knowing what freedom means. I think a free society can ban Nazis and still be free, deal with it
Or to put it another way, you want to set it for all of us and think that by my disagreement, I’m not truly free but your version of freedom is truly free. Sorry, but you will just have to accept that your definition of freedom is just as subjective and arbitrary as mine, unless you are an anarchist or something
Says you. I say its an affront to freedom. How do you like that? 
Not “any” speech. Just Nazis. Cause fuck Nazis.
No, just Nazis
You can be a Nazi. You just can’t hold office. Just like you can’t hold certain offices if you aren’t an American-born citizen, or if you haven’t lived in your area of representation for a certain number of years, or if you’re an adult but haven’t reached a certain age. Those things are also subjective. I could ask why America is so unfree that we don’t allow presidents under 35? If you support that, you’re basically saying that anyone under 35 is somehow unfit to be president, despite a difference in life experience where some older people are not as mature or capable as younger? And if there’s a ban on 35 and under, why not a ban on 80 or older? At that point you could have all the experience in the world but your body can betray you at any second. And who cares if a person’s not American, why should only Americans be allowed to be president of America? Other people have good ideas too. Why can’t a person be born outside America but still be president?
You want to make every restriction sound equal, where I can’t support freedom of I don’t also allow Nazis to hold office. I think that’s arbitrary. I love my freedom. But I think Nazis have simply crossed that line to the point where they don’t deserve to hold office. You know, just like 25 year olds running for president
No
McCarthyism sounds great until you realize the implications.
Why not?
Look, this isn’t the Nazi Party, it’s ONE GUY. And look at you, you’re pissing your pants in terror because this one asshole called himself a Nazi.
Making it a crime for this asshole to call himself a Nazi wouldn’t make him less of an asshole.
And allowing Nazis to call themselves Nazis doesn’t encourage them. Because, you know, when Fascism comes to America it won’t wrap itself in the Nazi flag and give the Nazi salute and shouting Heil Hitler. It’s going to be wrapped in the American flag, with its hand over its heart and shouting the Pledge of Alliegence.
One guy may try to lobby, but he is backed up by more guys. And if entrenched, those guys would have other guys backing them and it would be harder to get rid of them.
Allowing him to be a Nazi encourages others. I presume there is no shortage of Nazis hiding, but if suddenly the government encouraged or were neutral on them, more would find the courage to come out and spread their filth
It’s easy to support freedom of speech when the speech is popular. The test comes when you’re dealing with stuff that is unpopular and detestable.
There’s a rational basis for legislation if ever I heard it.
So we should arrest them and send them to a camp some place to protect the purity of the American Dream?
Let the come out and be mocked for what they are, ignorant losers who blame their inability to succeed on others based on irrelevant external traits.
Superman, the radio show, had more to do with the fall of the clan than any laws ever did.
Hard to go to a meeting when your kids are at home fighting the “evil clan” as they play.
Speaking as someone who is a member of more than one demographic that’s widely disliked by the American body politic, I’m very much against creating any sort of precedent for locking up people just because what they say is unpopular.
Why, there’s probably a NAZI under my bed!! :eek:
Thing is, everyone imagines themselves and maybe a few of their friends as the ones who get to pick which groups to ban. So they say, “Hey if we ban the Nazis and a few other awful groups like, I dunno, Nambla, we’ll just stop there.” But you won’t be the ones who pick. The Pickers will be people like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann. You really want those people deciding what organizations are allowed to exist?
How is this a personal insult? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the political opinion he expressed in his OP. I wasn’t randomly calling him a Nazi because we disagreed on a certain political point, I was demonstrating the absurdity of someone expressing a Nazi like political opinion in a thread he started about how he hates Nazis.
EDIT: Or were you talking about me calling his thread sad? I feel like that comment was based on his argument as well. I’m not particularly trying to be a straight dope scofflaw.
So? The Green Party, the Libertarian Party, the Natural Law Party, the Constitution Party, and the Reform Party all have people back home and are (or were) somewhat entrenched, and none of them can do jack.
The government is neutral to them. The government does allow them to be Nazis. How many of them are crawling out of the woodwork again?
No, they can be pushed underground and left to fester in an environment that makes them more paranoid and closer to groups like, say, Aryan Nations and other criminal gangs that we should be rooting out.
Yeah, that’s an idea: Ship all the Nazi wackos off to prison where they can learn how to be really fucking scary from the Aryan Nations gang members. Give all the would-be Hitlers some would-be Brownshirts to go drinking with.
So we should ban the Nazis because we enacted the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968. Don’t dispute my analysis: That’s the best reason I’ve heard so far.
More seriously, no, the government can’t affect thoughts to that extent. It can give some people hope, and make others angrier, but it can’t get rid of hatred. It can’t convince people to make progress in a direction they’re not already moving. Look at all the people who are still buttheaded racist scum to this day, decades after the big Civil Rights push.
Unless you’re just fetishizing the word ‘Nazi’, you could come back the day after you succeed in banning the Nazis and demand some other group be banned from public discourse. And another. And another.
And if you are simply focused on the word, you’re completely irrational.
We have banned them from holding power in the only way that matters: They couldn’t win an election if their lives depended on it.
No, it will make them more legitimate in the eyes of everyone who’d follow them in the first place, and attract new followers because fuck you.
By letting them strut around, we’re denying them cover. They don’t have to resort to dogwhistle politics and code words; they can be idiots right out in public, and let their neighbors know their shame.
To add to the question “Why not?”-Why not? They were a far greater threat than a few marginalized skinheads. Not to mention most racial violence comes not from these organized groups but from insane individuals (such as the Tulsa shooter for example).
Saying that the poster’s views were congruent with those of the Nazis attacks the argument.
Saying that the poster would “have made a great Nazi” attacks the person.
If you must, employ the former. Outside the BBQ Pit, avoid the latter.
[ /Moderating ]
No, no, no. Commies go under the bed. Nazis hide in your closet.
I’m not sure twickster will continue reading this thread since it’s not in Great Debates, but no, saying “you seem like you would have made a great Nazi yourself” is not appropriate. I understand the irony you were trying to point out, but turning it into a personal comment about another user isn’t allowed.
They never Roehm out of the closet?