Men are killed by other men, not as victims of domestic violence.
But if we just cared enough about murder, it wouldn’t happen, right?
What planet do you live on?
Women are responsible for a substantial percentage of domestic homicides, even when self-defense is excluded.
Gay couples can’t have domestic violence issues?
Actually, it did work.
Dan White was not convicted of murder for assassinating his political rivals George Moscone & Harvey Milk, but only of the lesser charge of “voluntary manslaughter”. He got a very light sentence, and eventually served only 5 years and 1 month in prison for the murder of 2 city officials and attempted murder of 2 others.
It is worth noting that excessive consumption of Twinkies was used as one symptom of the fact that White was suffering from a mental illness (depression) at the time, not as something excusing the killings. I think someone who is suffering from severe mental problems cannot be considered as criminally responsible of their actions as someone who is completely sane.
See this article on Snopes.
In all fairness, while I think that female circumcision is in general a barbaric practice (especially given the conditions in which it is often practiced), and always useless, some forms of it, for example Sunna circumcision (sole removal of the clitoral prepuce, scroll down on this page) do not seem to be much more traumatic than male circumcision. Male circumcision is a cultural practice that I find strange, but it is very popular in many parts of the world and seems to be a religious requirement for Jewish and Muslim males. Some people see male circumcision as an aberration and want to outlaw it, but they are quite rare, and other people do claim benefits to the practice. So what is the real difference, if it isn’t that male circumcision is practiced by some Western peoples while Sunna female circumcision is not?
In fairness, threads against violence to women and children in the US turn up frequently in the Pit. Probably far more frequently than threads about violence to women and children in other countries.
This is a horrible story, and I’m glad that what would be isolated shameful incidents are being brought up in an International forum as examples of what not to do. Honor killing does happen, and it is a problem that we can see an end to in our lifetimes.
But this guy is just a bad person. No need to generalize that to his entire country/culture. The murderous and insane of all kinds are known for spouting all kinds of pseudo-religious stuff while doing their bad deeds. This doesn’t mean they are representative of their religion, country, or culture. We are too quick to label any crime in a Muslim country an example of Islam- and of course only the most henious crimes get our attention. Let’s wait and see how Pakistan’s justice system, people, and media treats him before we start getting all rightous.
His full name is Ramón Salcido Bojórquez (note the spelling of Salcido). There’s not much about him on the Web, but I did find this:
According to the Wikipedia article on San Quentin, he’s still on California’s Death Row (usual disclaimers about Wikipedia’s accuracy apply, of course).
Geopolitics trumps human rights considerations. SA has oil, and Pakistan is in an extraordinarily strategic location (plus, they have nukes). [Yes, I’m aware that your questions were probably rhetorical, but many people underestimate Pakistan’s geographic value.]
He’s not a “representative,” but his culture implicitly supports his actions. Just like pre-civil-rights-south culture implicitly condoned racially motivated lynchings, and like a culture that condones lesser rights for homosexuals implicitly condones gaybashing. The reason hate speech is not protected by the constitution is that hate speech contributes to the sense of cultural “permission” that hate-crime perpetrators feel supports their actions. This man feels that his culture required him to commit this act.
Now, of course, we’re talking about what HE FELT to be condoned, which is not the same as what was ACTUALLY condoned. I understand that. But that’s where the “implicit” part comes in. If such crimes are under-punished, the government can protest all they want, the “message” sent is still one of implicit connivance at such crimes. Though silence may seem passive, silence in the face of an evil status quo amounts to an active support of that evil.
Not to say this guy is not fully responsible for his actions. But these crimes would diminish if it was universally understood within that culture that a MURDERER in the family brings more dishonor than an adulterer. To that extent, the culture bears some responsibility.
He is still alive. California only very rarely executes anyone. (I think Tookie Williams’ was the thirteenth since the reinstitution of the death penalty.) I’m from Sonoma County and vividly recall the period of time while Salcido was a fugitive, as he had been spotted all over the place before he fled to Mexico. It was terrible, and very frightening.
AFAIK, and I remember discussing this in a Women & Religion course in college, female circumsion practices are not Muslim at all, but pre-Islamic cultural institutions. I seriously doubt there’s anything about it in the Qur’an or Hadith.
Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251)
I think that’s the solitary hadith that speaks of it though.
Are you talking about the U.S. Constitution? “Hate speech” laws most certainly are unconstitutional.
What a difference a vowel makes. All these years I thought it was Salcedo. Turns out there is lots about him on the web. Here’s a snippet:
*
April 1989, Ramon Salcido, now 43, piled his three daughters in a car and drove them to a landfill. He stood behind the oldest girl, Sofia, 4, and held her head with his left hand. Then he slit her throat with a fishing knife and tossed her down a hill. He also slit the throat of his daughter, Teresa, 22 months. Both were nearly decapitated.
He slashed the throat of his 3-year-old daughter, Carmina, who survived to tell authorities, “Daddy cut me,” according to trial testimony and media reports.
He also fatally stabbed his mother-in-law and her two daughters, who were 12 and 8. He fatally shot his wife, Angela. Then he went to the Grand Cru Winery in Glen Ellen, Calif., where he worked as a forklift operator. There, he shot his supervisor to death.
In a letter to USA TODAY, Salcido, who is on death row at San Quentin State Prison in California, included pamphlets with drawings.
He does not admit in his writings to the killings.
“On April of 1989, a terrible tragedy took place in which I lost seven people that I loved the most, including among them my wife and two of my daughters. Thank God one of my daughters survived!”*
Except that we can generalize this, not in terms of religion, but in terms of culture.
Anne Garrels of NPR reported on “honor killings” in Iraq, and focused on one girl’s story. The girl had been kidnapped and released, but because the family couldn’t be sure she hadn’t been raped, a cousin killed her on the chance she was and no one questioned why the girl had to be killed. (The story is here, and there are links to other stories, including one from March about Turkish “honor killings” in Germany.)
Garrels’ story made it clear that these killings aren’t an Islamic practice; in fact, Islam as a religion is not misogynist as most Americans tend to believe… But tribal roots run very deep, and many of these misogynist customs stem from that. The sad thing is, these killings are so accepted in the Middle East that the odds of the killer being prosecuted is small. At least one Middle Eastern country, Turkey, is trying to eradicate the practice, but there is still a lot of support for it in the rural areas. (cite)
Robin
Well, yes, honor killings are a problem.
I guess I don’t consider this really representative of honor killings. It doesn’t diminish the horror of honor killings to admit that killing all of your female offspring isn’t a part of anyone’s culture. In the fight against these things, it is important for us to retain the moral high ground. And sensationalizing every bad thing that happens in a Muslim country as an example of Muslim culture isn’t going to give us that- it is just going to promote an us vs. them mentality that will discourage honest examination and change.
Let’s wait and see how Pakistan handles this. The very fact that it is news implies that it is unusual. The first paragraph said this crime “shocked” Pakistan- in the way that, say, stoning someone to death wouldn’t have shocked Taliban Afghanistan. If he gets off with a slap on the wrist, then we have plenty of fuel for outrage. But he is prosecuted and punished, I’m not sure where we can claim his crimes are any different or more culturally accepted than any other crimes.
Conventional honor killings are, one assumes, much nicer.
Let us review key passages in the article cited in the OP.
*"Hundreds of girls and women are murdered by male relatives each year in this conservative Islamic nation, and rights groups said Wednesday such “honor killings” will only stop when authorities get serious about punishing perpetrators.
The independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan said that in more than half of such cases that make it to court, most end with cash settlements paid by relatives to the victims’ families, although under a law passed last year, the minimum penalty is 10 years, the maximum death by hanging."*
I do…know of such a person, that is.
I should preface this by saying I do not regard myself as conservative.
I had this discussion years ago with a young lady at my college. She maintained that, in general, sexist traditions overseas were all right for them because “that’s how they were raised” and “that’s all they know”. I brought up the examples of female infibulation/clitoridectomy (yes, I know that women often drive this practice) and honor killings. She clarified her point by explaining that I, as a Western male, could not in any way express superiority over women, or mistreat them, but that men from other cultures could, and she would forgive them and regard it as normal…and lift no hand to stop them. She asserted “they don’t know any different”. I pointed out that they’re wearing Nikes and watching our music videos and they have, in fact, been exposed to our Western views of women.
She reiterated that they can still do this kind of thing, and that I cannot.
Incidentally, she also claimed to like her religion “because you can pick and choose for yourself which parts are true.”
:rolleyes:
Sailboat
xtisme, please limit use of copyrighted articles to a brief quotation. Thanks.
It isn’t limited to muslim populations, anyway. It’s done also by christians and animists in the same areas.