NC: Cops pepper spray black foster son of white family

[Typo_Negative]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’m afraid I’ll need a better cite than your own delinquent ways.

A better cite than yours?

But there’s no goddamned way that they would have seen an unfamiliar white kid go in through the open door of the house of their unfamiliar neighbors and have reported the break-in, and you know that

You say 'there’s no WAY they would have done it! no goddamned way, in fact. Do I really need to find an example of neighbors calling the cops when the have seen an unfamiliar white kid? Because you seem to be saying ‘it could not have happened’.

Or did I misunderstand you?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Steophan

Pepper spraying and handcuffing someone is de-escalating. The person who was previously violent and potentially dangerous is now unable to be either. That’s the police doing their fucking job.

First, quote fail, dude. I am not Yog.

Second, de-escalation fail. When someone is shouting at you and calling you names, de-escalation means you do something less severe than shouting and name calling. Handcuffing is more severe than shouting and name-calling, and you’re insane if you think otherwise.

Their fucking job also involves turning up when a crime is reported, and dealing with it. Being in a private property with no evidence that you have a right to be there provides plenty of reasonable suspicion of a crime, and could easily justify an arrest, not just a request to sit down while we contact the owners. Which is what actually happened here.

That’s also totally insane. There’s no suspicion of a crime based on being on private property with no evidence that I have a right to be there. And there’s no reason he needed to sit down while they contacted the owners. They not only were investigating a nonexistent crime, they KNEW there was a strong likelihood that’s what they were doing, and they needed to be willing to put up with a lot of angry bullshit from the kid during their investigation, as long as he didn’t cross the line into imminent violence against them.

[Eonwe]

@Steophan

Being in a private property with no evidence that you have a right to be there provides plenty of reasonable suspicion of a crime, and could easily justify an arrest.

This is wrong. The police could come to my house because a neighbor called who didn’t recognize my grandmother who is staying with me for a few days, and because she cannot prove in the moment that she has a “right” to be there, they would be easily justified in arresting her?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Typo_Negative

A better cite than yours?
You say 'there’s no WAY they would have done it! no goddamned way, in fact. Do I really need to find an example of neighbors calling the cops when the have seen an unfamiliar white kid? Because you seem to be saying ‘it could not have happened’.

Or did I misunderstand you?

An unfamiliar white kid at an unfamiliar house. I can go down the street right now and guarantee that within 5 minutes I’ll see a stranger walk into a house. Do I call the police to report a break-in? Because that’s insane. The fact that they didn’t know their neighbors is key to why this was a bullshit report.

[Eonwe]

@Steophan

Pepper spraying and handcuffing someone is de-escalating. The person who was previously violent and potentially dangerous is now unable to be either. That’s the police doing their fucking job.

That’s not what de-escalation means. Subduing someone is not de-escalation.

[billfish678]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

And there’s no reason he needed to sit down while they contacted the owners.

Sit down?

SIT DOWN?!

OMG the oppression. The racism.

[you_with_the_face]

Between Currie and the cops, it was the cops who had no right to be in the house. It sounds like they might’ve let themselves in without invitation and refused to leave even after the kid gave a plausible explanation for belonging there. And I doubt they approached him with Mr. Rogers-like benevolence either. A ballsier person than Currie would have pepper sprayed the cops instead of the other way around.

I’m trying to imagine being in his position for 30 seconds without becoming speechlessly upset, and it’s impossible.

If the cops did just waltz into the house without invitation, isn’t that against the law? Sounds like trespassing to me.

[Terr]

@Hooleehootoo

Is there a bleeping Cop defender in this whole beeping board who is worth his or her salt? Who is saying that cops should not investigate things like this?

**Eonwe **is. In numerous posts, on this thread.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Terr

**Eonwe **is. In numerous posts, on this thread.

Not true.

Edit: to be clear, the first part of the investigation is figuring out if the caller has sufficient reason to make a report. If you find out the report is based entirely on seeing a black kid go into a house through an unlocked door, and the caller doesn’t actually know whether the black kid lives in the house, you’ve done the investigation you need to do.

[Eonwe]

@Terr

**Eonwe **is. In numerous posts, on this thread.

Er. No. I have not said they shouldn’t investigate. I have laid out numerous and lengthy versions of ways in which things could/should have happened. What I have said (maybe not in these exact words yet) is that cops responding to this sort of call should assume innocence, should be apologetic, and otherwise behave as LHOD has indicated in his last few posts.

If you think I’m suggesting the cops not ever respond to this sort of call and just want to put words in my mouth that’s your prerogative, but it makes you look like you’re not really participating in any kind of meaningful, honest conversation.

[Typo_Negative]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

1. Talk to the guy, ask him what he’s doing in the house.
2. If his explanation is not satisfactory, ask him for some sort of evidence that he belongs there.
3. If he offers to call the house owners, cross-reference with the neighbor who reported the crime to be sure he’s giving you the correct names for the house-owners.
4. If he engages in actions representing imminent violence, or if he issues an illegal, plausible, direct threat of violence, escalate; otherwise, do everything you can to de-escalate the situation, including commiserating with him, apologizing for the inconvenience, etc., right up to the moment where you’re convinced this actually is a break-in, based on strong evidence, and is not just some poor schmuck getting confronted by the police in his own house.

1. Agreed
2. Agreed, but what sort of evidence? ID and photos on the wall would be best, but they were not helpful here. A photo album maybe? Not a lot of fellas keep those. Knowing where things are in the house? That may just show that he’s been there, not that he belongs there.
3. Perhaps. But the neighbors just reported a person they did not know. The neighbors may not know the names of home owners. may not know their phone number. I do not the names of the families that live across the street from me. Calling the home owners only works if you a verified phone number given by someone other than a suspect. In the days of cell phones and unlisted numbers, who knows. There are three people living in my house. 3 cell phones, no land lines.
4. Agreed. Police should do everything they can to keep calm, keep suspects calm, keep things from escalating if at possible. Here’s the thing though. I don’t know if they did this, I don’t know if they didn’t do this. I just don’t know. I have no facts on this regard. They have not come out.

Again, maybe these were bad cops, or just behaved badly on this day, or a perfect storm of bad decisions that culminated in the pepper spraying. I can see that.

But is it not also possible that the kid, for whatever reason, bad day, frightened, frustrated, indignant, too much coffee, low blood sugar…actually did become belligerent and uncooperative? Is it not possible that he became, or at least appeared to become violent?

[Hamlet]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

They have a report that a dude entered a house through an open door. What in that report sounds like burglary? Well, the dude entering the house was unknown to the caller.

So you exercise common sense: caller, do you know the owner of the house?

The caller says, no.

You ask, why do you think this person wasn’t the owner of the house?

The caller says, the dude is black.

You hang up. THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A BREAK-IN.

You are trying soooooo fucking hard to explain away everything that you’ve run past common sense like 18 miles ago.

I completely understand. You have a point of view, and will try everything in your power to make that point of view fit the facts of the case. If it calls for throwing away common sense and reality … well too bad for those.

I would posit that a vast majority of people in the US (and the courts) would agree that a call from a neighbor not recognizing a person entering your house is enough to start an investigation.

The fact you can’t even concede that a neighbor’s call is enough to even start an investigation blows your credibility with me. I find myself unwilling to get into the details (as in that there are more than the two scenarios you paint, that the person’s ID had a different fucking address, and that the police did repeatedly try to de-escalate the situation) because there is no possible way for it to do any good. You are so wrapped up in your own narrative (and in calling me and others disgusting, congrats on that) that there is no possible positive outcome to giving your opinions any credence at all. So I won’t.

[you_with_the_face]

@you_with_the_face

If the cops did just waltz into the house without invitation, isn’t that against the law? Sounds like trespassing to me.

Can a lawyer please answer this question? The story in the OP makes it actually sound like these cops did worse than “waltz” into this house. They barged in and immediately responded to the kid as if they knew him to be a crook.

If this is true, how is this defensible in any kind of way? What happened to getting a search warrant before you enter someone’s home? I get why the pepper spray has attracted most of the attention in this thread, but the cops’ total disregard for the 4th amendment troubles me much more.

[Terr]

@Eonwe

Er. No. I have not said they shouldn’t investigate.

I am sorry, but I do not consider “Why are you here?”-“I live here.”-“Ok, thank you, sorry we bothered you” an “investigation”.

[Typo_Negative]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

The fact that they didn’t know their neighbors is key to why this was a bullshit report.

That may well be. The neighbors may be bad people. Or stupid. I grant this. But from the police perspective, it is irrelevant. All they have to go on is the report and they are obligated to investigate if the caller seems at all …looking for a word here…can’t find it…lucid? credible? They would have no way of knowing that the neighbors were skittish racist shut ins or not.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Hamlet

I completely understand. You have a point of view, and will try everything in your power to make that point of view fit the facts of the case. If it calls for throwing away common sense and reality … well too bad for those.

This is why using your irony meter near the Internet voids its warranty. Seriously I can’t even.

I would posit that a vast majority of people in the US (and the courts) would agree that a call from a neighbor not recognizing a person entering your house is enough to start an investigation.

ONLY IF YOU KNOW YOUR NEIGHBORS. If I call the police to say I see a stranger entering a house, and no, I don’t know who lives in that house, that’s not enough to start an investigation.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Typo_Negative

That may well be. The neighbors may be bad people. Or stupid. I grant this. But from the police perspective, it is irrelevant. All they have to go on is the report and they are obligated to investigate if the caller seems at all …looking for a word here…can’t find it…lucid? credible? They would have no way of knowing that the neighbors were skittish racist shut ins or not.

Again: THE NEIGHBOR DOES NOT KNOW WHO LIVES IN THAT HOUSE. The call is on its surface ridiculous.

Go outside around 5:30 today. Go to a neighborhood (it could be your own!) where you don’t know the people who live there. Watch for someone to walk into a house. Have you just seen a break-in? Are you going to call the cops?

Because that’s what the caller saw: they saw someone entering a house, and they didn’t know the folks who live in the house, and they assumed that this action they saw was suspicious enough to call the police.

[Eonwe]

@Typo_Negative

But is it not also possible that the kid, for whatever reason, bad day, frightened, frustrated, indignant, too much coffee…actually did become belligerent and uncooperative? Is it not possible that he became, or at least appeared to become violent?

I know this was addressed to Left Hand of Dorkness, but if I could respond too.

Yes. Absolutely. But this was a confrontation (meant in the mildest sense of the word) initiated by the police inside the kid’s house. Assuming that everything leading up to that point was basically acceptable police procedure, their responsibility as figures of authority is to deal with that sort of situation in as delicate a way as possible.

It is possible that all this happened and the kid really did just get violent on them. But then, in that case, they failed. Pepper-spraying a resident of a home should never be an acceptable outcome of investigating a break-in, er, robbery, er, unfamiliar person on the property. Even if in that very last moment it was the only reasonable option to ensure the officers’ safety (which is an if I find hard to swallow), the department needs to go back and look at procedures so that officers know how to handle the whole encounter so that it never comes to that.

[Hooleehootoo]

@Hamlet

The fact you can’t even concede that a neighbor’s call is enough to even start an investigation blows your credibility with me.

Alright, argue with me. For argument’s sake, I will concede that the police can investigate, but after that I pretty much agree with everything LHOD said.

[you_with_the_face]

@Typo_Negative

That may well be. The neighbors may be bad people. Or stupid. I grant this. But from the police perspective, it is irrelevant. All they have to go on is the report and they are obligated to investigate if the caller seems at all …looking for a word here…can’t find it…lucid? credible? They would have no way of knowing that the neighbors were skittish racist shut ins or not.

I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone suddenly. What constitutes an investigation to you? What the cops did doesn’t sound like an investigation to me. Did you read the same article that I did?