need to find a book set in Trier, Germany!

I don’t consider Kafka confusing so much as depressing. But in some of his stories - most famous, Das Schloss, the confusion is part of the design. Neither the protagonist nor the reader knows what’s going on, or has a hope of finding it out.
But in regards to the language itself -grammar and vocabulary -, I think it is rather simple.

Now Musil, when reading “Verwirrungen des Zöglings Törless” (I had to for school, because it’s considered to signal the rise of fascism) I couldn’t get through more than 20 pages at a time, and I couldn’t figure out what was really going on, other than a group of boys were bullying other boys in a boarding school. The title (Confusion) is wholly apt.

Thanks blushing - but it took a lot of work: 7 years at school, plus 2 weeks UK, 3 weeks Ireland and 10 months USA. And to my embarrasement, my spoken English was abysmal when I went to the UK a few years back!:smack:

Now, did the English say your spoken English was abysmal, or did you say your spoken English was abysmal? :wink:

Actually a serious question – I have the same argument with my SO. He says his spoken and written English is abysmal, I look at him confused since I’m pretty damn sure that I couldn’t hit the ground running in Germany doing science and “living” in German! And my German’s pretty damn good.

Also, yeah, Kafka’s depressing more than confusing. Maybe that’s why I could never get through it?

No, no, no, the British are far too polite for that. In general, my impression is that as soon as you can struggle through five words, English-speakers will compliment you on how good you are speaking the language. I think this comes from a kind of inferiority complex - they know they can get around the world almost only with English, they had a few years of a foreign language at school, so they realize that learning another language is hard and difficult, so they are impressed that anybody actually speaks several languages.

No, it was my own observation, and I was disappointed because I didn’t expect it. I have no trouble reading and understanding the board, or writing a response; but listening to spoken (British) english and trying to reply was very hard, and I was always fumbling for words.

Part of that was probably the accent (yeah, I have a strong German accent myself) - I still can’t get used to the British accents. To my ear, it sounds as if each word is “rolled up into a circle” from the beginning and end, and I have to unroll it to figure out what the word is. (In contrast to French, where ten words are pulled together into five by dropping letters, and then smashed together into one word).
Standard American accent is much easier for me to understand.

I think that’s part of the snobbery of the Germans: they expect people to speak their language perfectly. In contrast to what I said above about English-speakers complimenting you: if you spit out a twenty-words sentence in German, and mess up one of the Der, Die, Das people will criticse or correct you. (Even having the wrong accent - saxon, frankish, swabian, even bavarian outside, esp. Turkish - will get you mocked relentlessly. Only accent-free High German is proper German for real Germans, the rest are speaking “Gastarbeiterdeutsch” Sorry for that, that’s just how the majority feels.).

In several cultural courses for Germans going abroad to prevent major gaffes and lessen culture shock, one of the constant advices was “Don’t be afraid to make mistakes when you speak English, just start”.
Sociologists have noted that even Germans with a high level of English skill feel self-consious for not being 100% perfect.

Yeah, I avoid him with most of the High literature. Aside from theater and poems, what work of high literature is not depressing and ending sad?

To the OP: that reminds me of Paul Watzlawick and two books of him you should go read (he’s Austrian but writes of course in standard German)

Anleitung zum Unglücklichsein (instruction on how to be unhappy), where he makes this point about unhappiness being more interesting than happiness, and thus, what drives literature. It’s of course written with a twinkle and meant to be taken as opposite.

The second, (which I think has been translated into english, but I’m not sure) is “Gebrauchsanweisung für Amerika” (Users manual for Amerika) - describing America from the point of view of an European. This might be interesting for you, or insulting (though that’s not intended, just light ribbing). or eye-opening, I don’t know.

From my own personal experience, this is true to an extent, but not as much as you say (speaking as an English woman who speaks a few foreign languages). Its not so much an inferiority complex though!

This is exactly the experience I had in Germany, and I was having arguments with German work colleagues about where I was from – they all assumed Cologne. This is the experience the SO says he has here in the USA too, but when he and I are speaking one on one, his English is very good. I honestly think a lot of this is down to one being one’s own worst critic if I’m perfectly honest.

I feel the same way myself in foreign languages! :wink: