Negotiating question… “I am writing a number on a piece of paper…” and then thje paper is handed to the opposite in negotiations, who will often write a different number on the paper…
In movies and TV Shows depicting financial negotiations, I have seen this technique used a few times. In most situations, privacy/secrecy were not at issue.
Does anyone ever do this in real life, and if so, what is the point and pourpose?
Regards
FML
Family lore has it that my uncle did that at least once when trying to buy a used car or something. He’s kind of our family example of “unscrupulous hustler”, though, so I don’t know if it’s true.
Wasn’t that used in a Shakespeare play? I have this dim memory of a line like “paper blushes not” or “paper doesn’t blush”, and I think it was in a play where people are either haggling price or trying to convey the order to kill someone. Pretty dim memory.
Anyway, I’ve never seen anyone in real life do this. I figure it just adds some delay and suspense on screen. More time to show the actors thinking about what they’re writing and reading.
I think they also use it in movies so the scene will age a little better. You don’t want an Austin Powers, “ONE MILLION DOLLARS” moment when people watch your show in a decade or so.
I’ve seen it used in real life. My father was a subcontractor for Fox and Jacobs. They used this technique on him once. It worked.
A guy did this to me when selling me a new car. He’d say, “If I can get you this price, TODAY, will you buy?” I thought he was from another planet.
I guess he wanted me to agree, and since it was “in writing” then he’d spring the “trap” of how I’d “agreed” and then say, “Oh no, that price doesn’t include blah blah blah…but you agreed!!!”
IIRC I said something like, "If you show me a stupid number on a stupid slip of paper like that again, I am walking out of here forever!"
Once everything was spelled out on full sheets of paper—you know, pretty paper, all typed and fancy like that there with actual explanations of what it all entailed—I did buy a car.
It adds drama, either for a bona fide theatrical purpose, or for a negotiator who wants to look bigger than life.
Also, IHMO, in the movies they do this to create a “theater of the mind.” You imagine a figure that would be impressive to you.
Mr Burns: “I’m going to write a number on a piece of paper. It’s not as large as the one you proposed, but I think it’s fair.”
Homer Simpson (seeing that it is the number “0”): “I think we should take it.”
I’ve never seen it used in a professional setting. Probably because in real life, most negotiations over pricing and fees are a lot more complex then just writing a number on the back of a napkin.
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
A guy did this to me when selling me a new car. He’d say, “If I can get you this price, TODAY, will you buy?” I thought he was from another planet.
I guess he wanted me to agree, and since it was “in writing” then he’d spring the “trap” of how I’d “agreed” and then say, “Oh no, that price doesn’t include blah blah blah…but you agreed!!!”
IIRC I said something like, “If you show me a stupid number on a stupid slip of paper like that again, I am walking out of here forever!”
Once everything was spelled out on full sheets of paper—you know, pretty paper, all typed and fancy like that there with actual explanations of what it all entailed—I did buy a car.
[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the world of Four Square.
The last time I went to buy a car back in '03, I’d already done my homework and knew what I was going to pay. When I got together with the salesman, I said, “Oh, by the way, we’re not doing the Four Square.” And he smiled and said, “Oh, yes we are.” Eventually, I relented, but I told him those numbers had nothing to do with reality nor had any binding on me. He did it anyway.
We finally got to the numbers I wanted. And then I told them I had my own financing set up. At which point, they made all kinds of excuses to back out of the deal. I ended up walking out of the dealership. When the saleman called me the next day to try to get me back, I’d already bought the car somewhere else. 
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Mr Burns: “I’m going to write a number on a piece of paper. It’s not as large as the one you proposed, but I think it’s fair.”
Homer Simpson (seeing that it is the number “0”): “I think we should take it.”
[/QUOTE]
MR STAR: Gentleman come in. Now we don’t want to take up much of your time. Let’s make this short and sweet. We’re prepared to offer you all the free coffee you want in any of our stores throughout North America and Europe, plus..
KRAMER: (Interrupting) I’LL TAKE IT!!
[QUOTE=Asimovian]
Welcome to the world of Four Square.
The last time I went to buy a car back in '03, I’d already done my homework and knew what I was going to pay. When I got together with the salesman, I said, “Oh, by the way, we’re not doing the Four Square.” And he smiled and said, “Oh, yes we are.” Eventually, I relented, but I told him those numbers had nothing to do with reality nor had any binding on me. He did it anyway.
We finally got to the numbers I wanted. And then I told them I had my own financing set up. At which point, they made all kinds of excuses to back out of the deal. I ended up walking out of the dealership. When the saleman called me the next day to try to get me back, I’d already bought the car somewhere else.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting the link…I had no idea there was any real science behind it but I guess I should have known. Great ending to your story, btw! Did you offer to drive it over to show them?
Last time I bought, in '06, they (different dealer) didn’t try the slip of paper routine on me. At one point the guy said the price was XX,XXX and I said, “You mean you’re only knocking $100 off and you think you’re doing me a huge favor?” I stood, thanked him for his time, and prepared to walk for the door. Mind you, I’d just driven 45 minutes to get there. And if he hadn’t gone into a bunch of fast talking and serious price cuts, I would have left. I’m not going to waste 3 hours of my life to get an extra $50 off.
But I make no bones about it: they HAVE to sell me a car to make a profit. I may need a car, but I don’t HAVE to buy it from them. I have excellent credit and especially with the internet, there’s no reason to allow yourself to be bullied.
“So what are your expectations on salary?”
“I’m thinking $100,000 a year.”
“Okay and I’m thinking full stock options, a company car, a corner office, your own personal assistant, and we’ll sponser your membership in the local country club.”
“Wow! You’re kidding!”
“Well, sure, but you started it.”
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Thanks for posting the link…I had no idea there was any real science behind it but I guess I should have known. Great ending to your story, btw! Did you offer to drive it over to show them?
[/QUOTE]
Hah! That would have been pretty sweet. I did offer the salesman details on the purchase I did make, however, including how I ultimately paid less than their crappy “best offer” and had absolutely no hassle regarding my pre-established financing.
In fact, what happened is that the day I left the crappy dealership, I found another dealership that had the exact same car and sent a three-paragraph email to their fleet manager. I told him exactly what my situation was, what had happened to me at the prior dealership, and what I wasn’t going to put up with. I told him that I knew the MSRP, knew the invoice, and just wanted to get in and out, take it or leave it. He wrote me back and said, “Well, you know the cost of the car. How much profit are you willing to give me?” I offered him $500 over invoice, and he, at my request, put in writing in the email that he was accepting my offer for x dollars on a check from ABC Financing company and that I could come down and pick it up.
I showed up a couple of hours later. He had most of the paperwork ready by the time we got there. We took a short test drive of the vehicle, and by the time we’d signed all the paperwork, the car had been cleaned and readied for us. Took 45 minutes total.
[QUOTE=Asimovian]
Hah! That would have been pretty sweet. I did offer the salesman details on the purchase I did make, however, including how I ultimately paid less than their crappy “best offer” and had absolutely no hassle regarding my pre-established financing.
In fact, what happened is that the day I left the crappy dealership, I found another dealership that had the exact same car and sent a three-paragraph email to their fleet manager. I told him exactly what my situation was, what had happened to me at the prior dealership, and what I wasn’t going to put up with. I told him that I knew the MSRP, knew the invoice, and just wanted to get in and out, take it or leave it. He wrote me back and said, “Well, you know the cost of the car. How much profit are you willing to give me?” I offered him $500 over invoice, and he, at my request, put in writing in the email that he was accepting my offer for x dollars on a check from ABC Financing company and that I could come down and pick it up.
I showed up a couple of hours later. He had most of the paperwork ready by the time we got there. We took a short test drive of the vehicle, and by the time we’d signed all the paperwork, the car had been cleaned and readied for us. Took 45 minutes total.
[/QUOTE]
I would have found more ways to taunt them. Call up and say, “Listen, I just bought the car at XYZ dealer, but yours is a lot closer for oil changes…” Not that you’d schedule one there or anything, of course.
I think next time I have to get a new car (please, not soon!) I’ll print out that article you cited. If they take out that stupid piece of paper, I’ll take out the article. “According to this, now is when you tell me you’ll have to run it past your manager…”
Glad to hear you were able to cut through the BS. If sales are slow and you’re not after this year’s “hot” car, I don’t know why they wouldn’t be happy to get paid a couple hundred bucks to do the paperwork.
[QUOTE=Asimovian]
We finally got to the numbers I wanted. And then I told them I had my own financing set up.
[/QUOTE]
Did you tell them you already had financing established up front? Or do you let them give you the song and dance so that they’ll give you the best price, thinking they’re going to make their money on the financing?
[QUOTE=USCDiver]
Did you tell them you already had financing established up front? Or do you let them give you the song and dance so that they’ll give you the best price, thinking they’re going to make their money on the financing?
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t tell them I had my own financing until we’d already worked out all the numbers. We’d agreed to all the figures, and then the salesman said, “So, let’s talk about financing…” And I said, “Well, I’ve already got my financing. The check’s right here.” He frowned, then took the check to his manager.
Suddenly, there were three guys there telling me, “Well, we’re not familiar with this company, and we can’t take their checks, so you should just finance through us.” (I later confirmed that it was absolutely untrue and that they had customers who had used that finance company.) I told them I wasn’t going through them, several times. So they finally came back and said they’d take the check, reluctantly, but they were going to have to hold the check (and the car) for 10 days to make sure it cleared. No way in hell I was going to turn over the check and have to start making payments with no car to show for it.
Ultimately, they said they just couldn’t get around that, and maybe I should think about starting over and leasing through them instead. :rolleyes: It was at that point, two hours into “negotiations,” that I finally walked out on them.
Oh, and lobotomyboy, should you find yourself in the market for a car and you end up knowing what you want, I’d highly recommend just making an appointment directly with the fleet manager of the dealership if they have your car in stock. He’s happy to move product quickly, you’re happy to not have to deal with most of the bs. The only people that lose are the sales people on the floor.
[QUOTE=Asimovian]
I didn’t tell them I had my own financing until we’d already worked out all the numbers. We’d agreed to all the figures, and then the salesman said, “So, let’s talk about financing…” And I said, “Well, I’ve already got my financing. The check’s right here.” He frowned, then took the check to his manager.
Suddenly, there were three guys there telling me, “Well, we’re not familiar with this company, and we can’t take their checks, so you should just finance through us.” (I later confirmed that it was absolutely untrue and that they had customers who had used that finance company.) I told them I wasn’t going through them, several times. So they finally came back and said they’d take the check, reluctantly, but they were going to have to hold the check (and the car) for 10 days to make sure it cleared. No way in hell I was going to turn over the check and have to start making payments with no car to show for it.
Ultimately, they said they just couldn’t get around that, and maybe I should think about starting over and leasing through them instead. :rolleyes: It was at that point, two hours into “negotiations,” that I finally walked out on them.
Oh, and lobotomyboy, should you find yourself in the market for a car and you end up knowing what you want, I’d highly recommend just making an appointment directly with the fleet manager of the dealership if they have your car in stock. He’s happy to move product quickly, you’re happy to not have to deal with most of the bs. The only people that lose are the sales people on the floor.
[/QUOTE]
In all fairness, there’s a scam out there that people fall for. I was selling my car on the net, and I got an email that basically said:
“I saw your ad and on behalf of my client, I would like to buy your car for the advertised price of $5000. My client gave me a cashier’s check for $10,000. You cash the check, refund us the $5000, and we’ll send a transport truck to pick up the vehicle.”
What people don’t realize: it’s a bogus cashier’s check, and it’s a good enough fake for the bank to “cash.” Problem: it bounces back ten days later, just like a personal check. So essentially the scammers have just made about $10,000 (depends on what they can resell your car for).
In that sense, dealers may be wise not to accept strange cashiers’ checks, but then, they take personal checks that could bounce, right? From the legit buyer’s POV, I wonder if this could be avoided by a wire transfer or some other practice.
ETA I figured fleet managers only dealt with people buying 5 cars etc. 
I think we’re getting a bit too far off the original topic, so this’ll be my last post about this specific incident. But feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.
Your comment about the dealership’s concern makes sense in general, but in my case, the check was from a reputable – although internet-based – company, and the dealership had already sold cars to people who had used the company. So it’s not like I had produced a “check” from some no-name.
And yes, Fleet Managers will definitely deal with individuals. As I understand it, the “fleet” in their title just means they’re the ones responsible for buying the inventory to get into their stores and making sure that inventory gets moved out (sold) as quickly as possible. If you find a dealership where you know exactly what you want and the fleet manager still doesn’t want to deal with you, it’s probably best to go elsewhere.