i think neither/either require nor /or.
I, too.
Tom H said:
and using words like “every” usually gurantees that the statement is false. In certain cases, identifying the omitted portions that are “understood” make the gramatical answer very clear. I find this particularly helpful in determining the first person pronouns.
No, it wouldn’t. Why would the “me” stand for “I”? “I neither” is more correct. In the following quote you seem to make this point for me.
That is what I said. "The correct answer is “it is I”’ in response to “who is it?” The question I posed was “who is there.” For which “I am here” would be a response which adheres more closely to the form of the question.
But when someone answers “me” they are saying “it is me” or “me am here” both of which are wrong. The “me” does not stand for “I”.
I will stick with “Nor do I [like her]”
Mr Zambezi, You did say
I pointed out (and you now seem to agree) that “me not like her neither” is not a well-formed English sentence.
As you correctly pointed out, in some cases identifying the parts of speech which are omitted can be helpful in determining those parts of speech which should be included, but the point I was making is that this is not one of those cases.
“Me neither” is not a contracted sentence, it is a free-standing, idiomatic lexical item. To express the same sentiment as a well-formed sentence, you would have to say, “I do not like her either” which bears so little similarity to “me neither” as to be useless for the purposes of comparison.
To support my contention, I have provided two citations for “me neither” from the OED and a third (chronologically the first one) which demonstrates a similar usage. It is obtuse to say that “me neither” is wrong in the light of this, though it may not be the kind of thing which one would use in formal writing.
It is much worse nonsense, however, to suggest that “me either” has any kind of merit or meaning whatever. On this point, I agree entirely with Da Ace, that “me either” is a barbarism in the same category as “I could care less”.
The people who say that kind of thing have picked up the phrase and a vague indication of the context in which to use it but have(1) misheard it in the first place, and (2) failed to give a moment’s thought to what the words actually mean. The first is excusable, the second is not.
I don’t doubt that some people who say “me either” have picked up the phrase from a first-generation moron, but there is a moron in the chain there somewhere.
My earlier question still stands. Can anyone provide an example of “me either”, used in this way, from a reputable source?
Tom said:
Agreed. Acceptable does not equal preferable. That was my point with the list of alternate responses such as “'sright bro!”
Considering the history of this expression I will concede that it is a free standing lexical item, but I have a suspicion that it started out as a contracted sentence. But you have the OED and I don’t so I will defer to your judgement on this.
Being understood, and being erudite are sets with vastly differing numbers of members.
Mr Zambezi, I think we may share more common ground than I though.
My real problem is with the pro-“me either” brigade, not with people who are arguing that “me neither” is not strictly correct.
I think the reason that my response was so intemperate was that the in OP, anyi seemed to be inferring that “me either” was the correct version by applying the same method you were.
I agree about being understood and being erudite, though the former is, of course, a sub-set of the latter. That was what I was getting at with my second post in this thread. You can convey a lot of meaning with quite a rudimentary grasp of the language, but you can’t convey anything very sophisticated or particularly worthwhile.
By the way, where is anyi? Did we frighten her off?
Precisely. Since the subset can’t be greater than the main set, the erudite are less in number than the merely understandable. I didn’t spell it out because I knew that you would get it.
Sorry about that last post - I hit Enter without intending to post. How can I delete my post as I can on other UBB’s?
DSYoungEsq wrote:
Horrible use of the English language!?! It’s just an idiom, and perfectly acceptable. If I were (note subjunctive) to say “I dislike Celine Dion”, would you consider it horrible usage for someone to say “me too”? It’s the same thing. Would you only say “as do I”? Your avoidance of a perfectly good idiom, in favor of a pretentious “nor do I” would certainly communicate something, but probably not what you intended.
Wait a minute, yamo do your really think “neither” and “either” require “nor” and “or”. What about “Bill isn’t going, and Ted isn’t going either.” Or “Neither cat likes calf’s liver.” Aren’t those correct?
Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental.
Curtsey said
It would depend greatly on one’s audience. I don’t think that anyone would even notice the “me either.” But to use another example, I would certainly notice “I could care less.”
Some family from the country visited me . They kept saying “supposeBly.” Ugh! And I really had to watch the words I used because they didn’t get the big ones. Ugh on me!
And my mom’s friend often misplaces the plural S. She refers to Cub Foods, as Cub’s Food. Double Ugh!
I guess it depends on where you feel most comfortable and who you are with. If you are with some yokels, then I would suggest avoiding “Nor do I.” But when I am speaking to better educated folks, I would use it.
Like it or not, there is a heirarchy of speech. It is better to know the proper form even if you speak the vernacular, than it is to speak the vernacular and not know the proper form.
I wasn’t applying a method so much as taking a wild guess. I thought the phrase was a contraction of a longer phrase; I simply didn’t know which one.
You didn’t frighten me off, but you did frighten me. I’m been a Cecil Adams fan for a long time, but I’m new to this forum. I had assumed the nature of the posts would be more impatient, more Usenet-like. I wasn’t prepared for the . . . um . . . energy people have for proper grammar. I thought I was a freak.
I am moved. Frightened, but moved.
Annie
P.S. Taking a cue from Mr.Zambezi, I will be replacing the troublesome phrase with “Sho 'nuff.”
On lawyering: “Never take a client who stops to reload.”
– Patrick Baude
That would be, “I’ve been a Cecil Adams fan . . . .”
How . . . ironic. [Cough]
Annie
Ahhh, another supposedly intelligent poster who not only pejoratively labels his debating foes as ‘morons’, but has turned a blind eye to an already previously posted quote of an authorititive source which shows that me either is acceptable English.
So, let me quote the definition from American Heritage Dictionary in full:
Now, do you see that last definition? Likewise and also are used as synonyms. (And yes, we all know that ‘synonymous’ does not mean ‘completely interchangeable.’) But it does support the argument that me either is synonymous to me too or me likewise.
The adverbial definition then goes on to specify that either is used as an intensifier, especially following negative statements, which is exactly what we’re talking about.
So, the example that the American Heritage Dictionary gives (so, it’s no OED) would indicate that I won’t either could be a standalone sentence. It’s only a short step to me either.
And a search for the phrase ‘me too’ on the web brought up quite a number of hits. Eventually, general usage will make anyone objecting to ‘me too’ appear as the moron.
You may not like it. It’s doesn’t sound too good to me either. You shouldn’t be idiotically labeling a class of people as morons. Me either.
Peace.
Oops. That should be "…a search for me either…
See how interchangeable they are?
:o
Peace.
Moriah said
I will have to take umbrage (over?, to?) this. TomH cam eafter me in this very thread. You can see by our exchange that he is a gentleman, admitting that his initial impression was wrong.
Furhtermore, he said that “me either” was acceptable. His point is that “me either” is a less refined answer than others.
annie, some of us take grammar veryseriously regardless of how bad my…er, our spelling and typing is.
Now anyone want to attack the superfluous and misused “actually”, “beg the question” and “myself” that are making the speakers sound like idiots?
Either? Neither?
Let’s call the whole thing off…
Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post
Aologies in advance for a long post, but I’ve been away for a couple of days and I see that the thread had moved on apace!
Mr Z, Thank you. It seemed that we originally started off as (friendly) opponents on this board and are now allies (though that doesn’t mean that we can’t still disagree with each other). Thanks for sticking up for me in my absence.
However, let me state for the avoidance of doubt that my view is that the correct response to “I do not like Celine Dion” is (if you do not like Celine Dion) “me neither”, rather than “me either”.
Annie, I’m sorry to hear that you were frightened. I am a relative newcomer to this MB as well, for what it’s worth. I’m glad to hear that you’ve been a Cecil Adams fan for a long time. BTW, what happened seven years ago to make you begin wondering about this?
moriah, I’ll have to take your points in order:
There are a number of notable departures from logic here:
(1) the use of the term “supposedly intelligent” is intended only to belittle me. I have never claimed to be intelligent; nor has anybody, to the best of my knowledge, described me as such on this MB. If you think I am, though, and I am flattered, but don’t set me up to knock me down.
(2) who … perjoritatively labels his foes as ‘morons’: No, no, no. Cf my arguments with Mr Zambezi. Not my style. I described as “morons” those people who cheerfully said things like “me either” and “I could care less”. I was not accusing my opponents of doing the same thing.
Now for the American Heritage Dictionary (and you’re right, it’s no OED, look at what Cecil’s colleagues refer to when answering questions about word-meaning). But you’re quite correct, it’s no OED. Sadly, the failure here seems to be yours rather than the dictionary’s. Let’s look at the last bit of the entry. That is, the bit to which you seem to attach importance:–
Now, those of us who are familiar with the usual English usage will see what I’m getting at. viz:
This is precisely my point: me either is just meaningless rubbish. Me neither means a great deal.
I have a friend who has excellent grammar and vocabulary skills. I trust her judgment on almost all such matters. (Coincidentally, she’s the one who introduced me to Cecil by loaning me one of his books and assuring me that it was great. That was nine years ago). Seven years ago, she insisted that the proper phrase is “me either,” but she didn’t have an explanation as to why. I haven’t been able to find the answer in any reference book, nor have I heard anything about the correctness of either phrase.
As a person who loves grammar, I started to the view the question as a holy grammar grail. I also assumed that the answer was simple. Judging by the posts so far, I’m beginning to rethink that opinion.
Thanks to everyone for all the input.
Annie
Yours truly likewise, NOT.
Well, now that TomH and the guy who’s up the creek in Africa are buddy-buddy, i.e., ganging up on the rest of us. . . 
. . .I think TH is just trying to use logic to defend the term he likes to use against the rest of the world., morons and the erudite alike. (Aren’t there any eruditic morons?) I’m on Annie and her friend’s side, on the issue she originally raised – ‘me either’ vs. ‘me neither’, although I presently would substitute ‘nor I’ for either. . .but not neither.
But also, I think the Zambezi is overflowing in taking a set-theoretic approach to styles of English / classes of people. I’ve listened to some very ununderstandable erudite folks. Perhaps a Venn diagram is in order at this point, but ‘them neither’ would probably want to see it, so we’ll stick to the usual SD verbosity.
I can’t get excited about what the OED says. 1. The OED may have seniority, and seems to be the authority on etymology, but otherwise, I don’t think it represents much reality in today’s world. Furthermore, though it may try to encompass American English, it is basically British. I’ll concede that Britons can use the best English. . .but they can also use the worst. And both ‘me either’ and ‘me neither’ remind me of that slouch, Shakespeare, methinks. And what is English anyhow, but a concoction of Anglish (?), Saxon, Danish, Norman French, and you name it; and I don’t theink there ever was an Academy of the English Language. Here are some advising URLs which tend to favor ‘me neither’ over ‘me either’:
http://webster.commnet.edu/hp/pages/darling/grammar/grammarlogs/grammarlogs54.htm#10
http://www.clta.on.ca/hillsofmexico/linc/homlinc.htm
http://neuroconcept.com/doc/peb/peb%20lezione06.htm
This last example makes the ‘me’ the object of a preposition, so the case of this pronoun is at least justified here.
Here are some that just provide empirical fodder, with a slight edge for ‘me either’:
http://209.132.24.69/pcp/fake3.htm
http://www3.csp.edu/c009/notes/C009chatnotes/8-19-98.html
This is my take on ‘me either’ versus ‘me neither’. Both sound pretty slovenly/vulgar to me, where I live, however they sound in other parts of the US or the English-speaking world. However, as a kid growing up on the not-very-elite streets on the then western edge of the then small, mostly agricultural city of San Jose, CA, in the much smaller rather agrarian town of Salinas, and in the working-class, but then respectable, sprawl of East Oakland, I probably used ‘me either’, not ‘nor I’, as I would now. However, I went to college in the Northeast (Cornell U.), and what language I used at that point shifted some. At a later date, I went to Stanford for a graduate degree. However, both programs were in engineering, which is not known for its verbal erudition, and also, my speech will tend to backslide in environments of less refined standards. But also, I don’t jabber all the time. So, I don’t really know what words I would use in various situations for whatever requirement. Actually, if I ever responded to someone’s such negative statement as one of these expressions would follow (unlikely), I would probably express my agreement or opposite stance to such statement in the form of a full statement, such as, ‘No, I don’t either,’ in the case of agreement.
But apart from what I would really say, I think these two responsive forms fit into English thus: In both of them, ‘me’ is the wrong case (where they respond to another’s statement which positions that person in the nominative case), since it is the first-person objective pronominal form rather than the nominative one, which is ‘I’. But as to preference between ‘either’ and ‘neither’ here, first, I take the view that, while one can tag this usage of ‘either’ or ‘neither’ as idiomatic, it remains that this usage does still constitute a shortened form of a full statement that does not employ any idioms. For example, ‘at home’ is an idiomatic use of the word ‘home’ that is shortened from ‘at one’s home’.
So then, allowing that our shortened phrase is idiomatic, the issue should revolve about two matters – 1) what the elements are of the statement to which we are conforming, and 2) how many of these we must repeat in our abbreviated phrase. However, I think there is a third concern – in general, avoidance of other conceived no-nos in English – in this case, the double negative. For ‘1’, we have a) a pronomial subject, b) a verb, c) a particle negating this verb, and d) in the case of the statement about Dion, an object of the verb. Additionally, we need e) some kind of particle denoting supplementation of our stance, to the original statement. We know we must choose a new subject, ‘a’, for our response, namely ourselves (but in the same pronomial person) (for the present choice of idiom given us, we are forsaking the nominative case for the objective). Otherwise, all we really feel we need in our response is some intensifier that indicates agreement with the sense (here, negative) of the verb, so we can forget ‘b’ and ‘d’.
So then the choice of what we use, intensified, for ‘c’ + ‘e’, is what is at issue in this momentous, “frightening” controversy, in the first instance, between Annie and Tom. I say, before we choose a negative word or particle for ‘c’, we should consider the English language’s concerns about the double negative, which may or may not be seen as relevant here. English gains a measurable amount of subtlety, in degree of positive/negative sense, from refusing to equate the double negative to the single negative, as many other languages do, even requiring matching of negative forms in most cases. Now, some persons are going to say that, in order to agree with a negative statement, we must, in our response to it, include at least a negative particle; while others are going to say that repeating such particle introduces double negation. I take the latter position. I say that simply leaving out any reference to the sense of my response implies the same sense as existed in the statement to which I respond – and that inclusion of a negative particle introduces double negativity, which in this case, may not create confusion, but seems, I think, in the case of more than just me, to rouse the rasping feeling of the vulgar use of a double negative’s having been used in an English expression. Anyhow, that’s the sensation (no pun) I get when I hear ‘me neither’. ‘-Either’, with or without the negative prefix ‘n-’, is chosen as a filler for ‘c’ amd ‘e’, in the latter case, merely to intensify agreement and denote supplementation; and I hold that this intensifier, in its positive form, fully expresses agreement with the first person’s negative statement, according to the general rules of negation in English, only in the case where it carries no negative prefix. ‘Too’, ‘also’, ‘likewise’, etc. are the usual words indicating supplementation, but do not get across the intensification seemed needed here as well as does ‘either’. A stressed ‘and’ may also be used in this composite role.
So that is why, I believe, ‘me either’ sits better with me, and others, such as Annie and her friend – than does ‘me neither’. Now, I’ll add that anybody who doesn’t agree with all of this is a confounded idiotic moron, and then some. And if you don’t agree. . .me neither.
Ray (Why is it that the SDMB seems only to excel in debates over the most trivial and worthle
In the third paragraph of the above, “. . .but ‘them neither’ would probably want to
see it,. . .,” “want”, of course, should’ve been ‘not want’.
Ray