Nessie - the Loch Ness Monster

Great Debates
41

“Then there’s the problem of the enclosed nature of the loch: at one time it may have been open to the sea, but it is now completely landlocked, some 55 feet above dea level, …” pg 34, Monsters of the Sea, Richard Ellis, Knopf, 1994.

“Fianlly, one must remember that the Loch must have been frozen during the recent geologocal past, and so Nessie’s ancestors must have entered the Loch after the susequent thaw. By what route? There can not be underground channels connecting the Loch to the sea, because the Loch would drain down to sea level if there were. There is no freshwater connection to the sea ample enough to submerge even a small monster”, Dr. T.E. Thompson, Zoology Dept. Univ of Bristol, qouted on pg 161 of A dictionary fo Common Fallacies, P.Ward, Prometheus 1989.

42

It is perhaps unfortunate that you should choose two quotations that clearly contradict one another to try and make your point.

43

Um, how’s that? I read them both to say that Loch Ness is completely land-locked. Am I missing something?

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

44

Hooookay,
But methinks that from this:

…others shall smell blood in the water anyway… :wink:

If a critter like Nessie reproduced asexually, then significantly fewer (not just one, but fewer) individuals would be required to maintain a population, but I’ve never seen numbers on minimum viable populations for something that reproduces asexually only.

Asexual reproduction doesn’t solve all the problems involved, though. Completely unaffected by mode of reproduction are catastrophes, disease, loss of genetic variability, predation, competition, and food supply, all of which could drive a small population to extinction.

Potential threats to the population like demographic fluctuation, inbreeding, and genetic drift are reduced, but not eliminated, if the critter reproduces asexually. Only demographic fluctuation is effectively put to rest as a threat to the population (even if you get them down to one, the birth rate can still rise). Asexual populations require genetic variability too, especially in order to respond to long-term environmental changes, like deglaciation. IIRC, the overwhelming majority of asexual organisms can also reproduce sexually in order to reap the benefits gained from mixing up the gene combinations frequently.

The ability to reproduce asexually does not solve the challenges that face very small populations, although it may allow them to last longer than would otherwise be possible, I can’t really be sure.

Changing gears…

It appears that my thoughts on Nessies living in the great deeps would not be possible, as Daniel has posted some quotes that make the link between the ocean and the Loch unavailable for transit back and forth. If there is no useful link to the ocean, then I don’t see how a population of Nessies is even worth consideration.
-Steve

45

Daphy: You claimed that some amphibians were capable of asexual reproduction. Which ones? And how big are they?

(I have never before heard of a vertebrate capable of reproducing asexually.)

46

I think MadHun’s point is that one quote (the first one) says ‘completely landlocked’ and the latter says that ‘there is no freshwater connection to the sea ample enough…’ which tends to suggest that there is a connection, just not very big. Now, I happen to know that there is a whole river connecting the Loch to the sea and I have friends in Inverness so I will try to get some facts and figures as to the size of River Ness.

tracer: I was under the impression that some varieties of frog could reproduce asexually, but could be mistaken as my attempts to find anything relating to that on the WWWeb were unsuccessful. All I could find was a Whiptail lizard Cnemidophorus sexlineatus. Not a lot of info available at (http://madsci.wustl.edu/posts/archives/dec96/844956732.Zo.r.html), but that’s an example.

Nessie Lives!
(and “incognuity” should be a word!)

47

I saw an episode of “In Search Of” just this morning on Nessie and Leonard Nimoy says she’s real. So there.

48

And, hey, if you can’t trust the inventor of the Vulcan nerve pinch, whom can you trust? :wink:

49

Hey, for that matter, if you can’t trust Jurassic Park, who can you trust?

50

Both of my qoutes were right. In this usage “landlocked” means not navigable. There is the River Ness, which is (per a site) a major salmon spawning river, ie wide, shallow, gravel bottemed & fast. Salmon like 1-3’ to spawn in. Mighty shallow for that plesiosaur!

51

I hate to side with Daphy on anything–I’d like to slap this smart-assed wiseguy upside the head with a big rubber basketball shoe-- but some amphibians are capable of asexual reproduction. So are up to 40% of domesticaed turkeys (I cite Unca Cecil on this–check the archives).

But if this organism existed, after centuries of reports, we should have found a body by now. There is no “not necessarily” about it–there **would ** be a corpse.

No Body=No Boogyman/Boogyfish. So sorry. :stuck_out_tongue:

You should tell the truth, expose the lies and live in the moment."-Bill Hicks
“You should tell the lies, live the truth and expose yourself.” - Bill Clinton

52

I love you too Bosda

Nessie Lives!
(and “incognuity” should be a word!)

53

Loch Ness is a nice place to visit, and has a cheesy museum that is more interesting than Nessy herself. Go there the next time you’re in GB.