New car technology = major problem potential?

I watched a program concerning cars and what cars were in the past and probably will be in the future. I was pleased to note that some manufacturers are turning back to rear wheel drive, since I always disliked it for several reasons.

The first was because on slippery corners, the darn thing made turning onto the road somewhat hazardous if you were in a hurry. Then I questioned the massive amount of weight on the reinforced front, leaving little in the rear for stopping power. (In a rear wheel drive car, the gear box, drive shaft and heavier axle added weight there. Plus, the rear brakes often grabbed first, throwing the weight forward, onto the heavier front end and forcing the wheels to dig in.) Lastly, those boots break far too easily and the pin bearings inside get all screwed up from dirt. Replacing them is expensive.

Besides, I like scratching off, being thrown back in the seat, the front end raising up and the big back wheels laying down an awe inspiring ribbon of black and twin streams of smoke.

Anyhow, they were discussing how a car might soon become electronically steered, with sensors in the steering to adjust to the road – they have those now – and make it less likely for the driver to over steer. In short, there might not be any solid connection between the steering wheel and the steering box.

We all better get massive raises to be able to buy these cars!

I’ve been around electronics as a user since before Microsoft. I’ve been around cars since birth, again as a user. One thing that I am absolutely sure of is that things human made break down. Look at that mass of sophisticated precision machinery known as the shuttle. It breaks down frequently. We’ve lost a few space probes, marvelous miracles of engineering, because something failed.

So, what happens if you’re tooling around in your electronic car and the steering computer packs it in? How do you steer to safety? Currently, with a hard connection to the gear box, if the sensors fail, so what? If the power steering goes out, you can still steer.

Plus the cars are to become virtually a computer. Web connections, Internet, phones, TV, guide maps, specialized air bags and so on. (They are up in arms about cell phone drivers getting in wrecks now. Just wait until they have access to the Internet. One car model has it already!)

Computer repairs on cars are expensive now! How about when they become rolling electronics? The last car I drove using electronic ignition crapped out on me and cost me a bundle to get it fixed. However, the auto shops sold standard ignition kits for under $10. $2 would get me a distributor cap and good rotor from a junk yard.

New auto shops charge now for plugging into your computer and electronically analyzing the motor. My home computer cost me $350 when I fried a component! I refill my $28 HP printer cartridges! A tiny chip burned out in my answering machine and the repair shop told me to buy a new one because they’d charge me more than the machine was worth to fix it! The last VCR I took in for repair would have cost more to fix than to buy another. (I pitched it.)

What if you electronic car pops a whole bunch of circuits out on one of those famous, long Western desert roads? Everything shuts down. Even the built in cell phone. What then? Fuel is regulated by computer now and when those babies go, repair shops drool with anticipation of the bucks they’ll charge to fix them.

With all of this, of course, comes more power demands, so they are building, or trying to, 42 volt batteries. With everything automatically powering up when you turn the key, you are screwed if you have a bad cell. My uncle’s car turns on it’s running lights when he starts it. Low battery and he can’t even turn them off to get the thing going to get it to a shop. (We found that out. I had to go pick him up and take him to the store to buy one.)

With older cars, you could get by if some systems failed. Many, you fixed yourself. My neighbor has a new car which firmly instructs him Never, Ever to get it jumped nor to use it to jump start another car. If his battery poops out because his alternator went, he can’t even jump it to drive to a shop. He gets to pay for a tow. ($30 to $60).

I don’t know. Are we starting to push the technology too fast for general use in transportation without examining the potential for major problems? I mean, look at Cuba. They’re still running cars from the 1950s because they can make replacement parts by hand.

They’d be sunk with more modern cars. How do you make a chip by hand? (Well, you can but it might be the size of a brief case when you finished.)

Should we be more cautious? The automobile industry has a long, long history of concentrating on profit verses safety, designing and selling new cars for higher prices and ignoring flaws until sued. Often, they, and we, produce and introduce products, excited about the demand and profit without looking into all aspects of potential problems.

Cell phones for one. Laptop computers on aircraft for another. Radar ranges and pace makers. Small boat motors and oil pollution from their exhaust. Weed blowers and noise pollution. Propane powered floor polishers and the increase in CO2 from their exhaust in the closed stores they are used in. Lithium batteries and land fill pollution. The ever famous freon and it’s effect on the ozone layer.

(Tires. A question. They wear out. The rubber grinds off into powder. I’ve seen it on the sides of paved roads. Billions of tires. What is happening to all of the rubber dust? What is it doing?)

Should we be more cautious with the car technology instead of ‘hey! Lets install this computer connected to the Internet! Think of the uses! Think of the profit!’ (They didn’t think of the distraction and potential for accidents.)

Hasty correction: At the beginning of the post, I should have indicated that I dislike FRONT wheel drive.

Sorry.

Front wheel drive makes it difficult to turn onto the road? I’ve noticed more of that with my current RWD car than I ever have with FWD…

In fact, the problem with my car is too much weight in the back, since it’s a mid-engine and the only weight in the front is the spare tire.

If you’re concerned about your electronics cutting out and preventing you from driving, I suggest you get a good solid diesel car and keep it in working condition. If you have a diesel engine, manual steering, and a manual transmission, you can take the battery and alternator out while it’s running and go on to drive it for hundreds of miles.

You think this is bad? The next generation Volvo design will have no camshafts. You heard it here first.

Electronically controlled solenoids will be used to time all of the cylinder valves. What happens when the computer fails, you ask? Your car stops, dead! All you get to do is hold your cell phone up to the radio, tune it to a special setting and a channel will burp out a bitstream of diagnostic information to the garage you have dialed. How nice, especially if you are stuck in a snowstorm and freezing to death!

Most current car models must be restarted at a repair shop once they fail. Few vehicles are designed for the weekend shade tree mechanic to work on. All of this makes me glad I drive a car that is almost exclusively mechanical in nature. If my car’s computer fails, it will still operate just fine.

Hey, we’ve gotta start sometime to get the flying cars that everyone’s been dreaming of for the past fifty years.

All this technology seems to have some advantages, improved reliability, fuel economy, and longer engine life are all good.

I miss the days when I could just pop the hood and know what everything was and what it did. I open the hood on my car and can barely see the engine. The only times it has failed me was when electronic components bit the dust. Our van has only caused us problems when the electronic fuel pump controls have gone beserk. Neither of these vehicles are as complex as any new models.

It seems that the more complex cars become the higher the potential for some component to fail and leave you stranded.

Why not more diesels? Maintain them and they are a joy.

My simple VW diesel went on for 100,000’s of miles, burned next to nothing in fuel (70 - 85mpg), and rarely needed repair.

My friend’s Rabbit diesel had 600,000 miles on it and the body rusted to nothing while the engine just kept ticking.

Another friend had a Peugot 504 diesel that had 700,000 miles on it and it still looked and ran like new. He got 45mpg so you can calculate the cost per mile to run this car.

All these engines outlived numerous clutches and front wheel drive components. The amount of fuel saved paid for the replacement parts.

Horses? Nah, if they get sick I won’t know what to do. I’ll just walk.

These damn chariots have too many moving parts–what if they break? No thanks, I’ll stick to my horse.

Carriages? But you have to have a professional to repair them! Not for me–I have my chariot.

Automobiles? But they have all those gears and pistons and things! Carriages were good enough for my pappy!

It’s nice to know that Luddites are alive and well.

Me, I think I’ll stick with efficiency, safety, and performance. I don’t have to be able to take my car’s engine apart to prove how large my testes are.

Well, that was sure helpful, andros. :rolleyes:

I look forward to hearing more comments from other posters who are actually addressing the details of the issue in the OP. In the meantime, Skrib, you can find out what happens to rubber dust from tires at the Car Talk web site.

There are rare exceptions, but for the most part if you have a modern car(1990 on in this case) you can drive in stop and go traffic in 120 degree heat with the a/c cranked to the max without any worries of overheating. Try doing that with an old classic 50’s or 60’s car. Arizona and Nevada highways used to be horrendous for summer travelers, now it’s just the price of the frickin’ gasoline that’s a pain in the ass.:wink:
How about no tune-ups till 100,000 miles, another advantage of modern cars have computers to thank for. You were either lucky, or a mechanic if your car got more than 100,000 before dropping dead in the “simpler days” 40 years ago.
On the whole I think that while cars are steadily getting more and more complicated and electronic dependent, as they have been doing for over 20 years, they are getting more and more reliable and efficient as a result. So while you may no longer be able to do more than give it an oil change, the car “should” have much longer intervals between repairs and tune-ups. However at the same time a modern lemon has the potential to be 10 times worse than a classic lemon.
The transition many car makers are making to rear wheel drive is both positive and negative. Positive because rear wheel drives are more fun, which is why they are making the change in the first place. All sports cars that deserve that deserve to be called sports cars have rwd. Negative for all season driving if you live anywhere it is going to snow. Front drive is great for reducing weight, increasing traction, and more predictable handling, but not very performance oriented. Granted there are some major exceptions to that, like an Acura for example. My personal favorite is all wheel drive, which is also gaining in popularity. The only dissadvantage is more weight, other than that it’s definately tops in traction and predictable handling. Oh, and Quattro rules!:smiley:

One reason why diesel is not, in my opinion, a good idea, even though the motors run like forever, is the chemical components in the stuff.

Aside from it being more polluting than gasoline, it seems that one of the things in it, a 20 letter chemical name, is massively cancer causing. Something like 1,000 times more of a carcinogen than tobacco. There was an article out about it last year and, no, I don’t recall where I read it.

It caught my attention because I knew people who used to work filling up diesel trucks at a major truck stop.

There is no doubt, however, that the diesel engine is durable, since the majority of all heavy powered industrial and commercial transport and machinery are equipped with them. I know, I’ve been at the same truck stop when they have been piled up with rigs and the stench of the exhaust fumes was awful! Even ‘electric’ trains use a diesel to turn the generators to make the power to run the electric drive motors. Most, if not all, large ships use diesel engines.

I’m more concerned about two things with the new coming cars. Safety and repair expense. I like to drive a car 5 years or so. Often I’ll drive one until there is no longer any use in trying to repair it. I like to buy used cars. I’ve lost power steering before in traffic and the hard linkage enabled me to continue driving (though, in one truck, just barely). I’ve replaced radiators, fans, ignition systems, water pumps (they could make those beasts to last longer), fuel pumps, a/c blower motors and once, the harmonic balance. In a pinch, I’ve rotated distributor caps to adjust a cars cranky tuning to make it run well enough to get to a shop. Replaced fuel filters, even fixed bad rings with spark arresters that keep the plugs from fouling out and fixed a/c units.

One of my friends has a new car and I wouldn’t even try to fix it if the computer controlled electronic timing went, or the computer adjusted fuel feed and carburetor acted up. My car has electric windows and if the power goes, so do they. (I carry a sharp metal rod to break them out if in an accident and the door jams.)

People I know who have the more modern cars have huge repair bills if something goes wrong.

With advanced technology comes the major potential of serious breakdowns without any redundant systems being in place. It’s a pain now if you buy a used car with power windows and one of the motors go. Now, though, you can toddle on down to the junk yard and get a used one or pay a somewhat high price for one new.

Manufacturers don’t think. Early car heaters channeled actual exhaust from the exhaust pipe into the car for heating. The only reason a whole bunch of folks didn’t die is because the cars were not as air tight as today’s. They decided to go to a water coil heater when people complained of their shoes getting scorched, dresses catching on fire and cars burning up.

The very early cars had no brakes. Manufacturers knew of wagon brakes, but produced cars without even a rudimentary hand brake. You kept the car in gear to slow and coasted to a stop.

What car is it that in order to change the plugs, you have to lift the engine? Like the designers did not know of this.

We’ve had cars with exploding gas tanks, cars that are unstable on the road, cars that turn far too easily, cars with roofs that flatten upon roll over, (the manufacturers knew that removing the roof supports would allow this), cars with parts designed to wear out quickly and cause as much damage as possible to the motor, cars with ignition systems that cut out, catch fire, or turn on unexpectedly.

So, I don’t trust the makers to think all that well about our safety. SUV’s with too high of a center of gravity encouraging roll overs, cars with ineffective turning points that take up nearly a foot ball field to turn around in, cars so oddly designed that they sucked exhaust into the cabin and cars made of materials that virtually shatter upon impact.

They took wing windows out to save money. Now, if you want some fresh air, you have to roll the whole window down a bit, which is not as good, noisy and, if raining, draws in a lot of water. (I loved those wing windows.)

You get the picture. Now, they’re pushing the electronic technology without looking at the long view. Like they pushed the push button automatic transmission. They knew the buttons were stiff, awkward and hard to work, but did it anyhow. Don’t forget in infamous Corsair, which they knew was dangerous, but portrayed it as being close to a jeep and a caddy.

I’m a bit concerned. There are just so many ways to get screwed once electronics fill up a car.

Besides, cars are designed to wear out, certain areas first. It’s easy to make electronic parts designed to wear out also.

I’m all for new techno cars, but ones with caution and safety systems built in - like a hard link to the steering box. A switch to cut off automatic running lights if the battery gets low. Things like that.

Zenster wrote:

Solenoids? Valves? Cylinders?

What, you mean it still uses an internal combustion engine?! Pah. When is Volvo gonna get with the program and start making gasoline-fuel-cell powered electric cars?

Skribbler wrote:

Diesel engines in the modern world are more efficient and produce far, far fewer incomplete-combustion products than diesel engines manufactured before 1993. One diesel enthusiast e-mailed me to say that a modern diesel engine is almost unrecognizeable when compared with the diesel engines of yore.

¿Que?

A user of cars, Beer, as opposed to a dealer or mechanic.

Agreed cars are better in many ways than years ago. More complicated also.

The model-A had no oil pump. Oil was poured into an ‘automatic oiler’ set atop the motor. It was basically a container with valve controlled lines running into the engine. You opened the valves to start the ‘drip,’ set the spark, set the fuel, then cranked the engine to start it. As you merrily drove away, oil ran through the motor and out the bottom of the engine. No oil pan. (The EPA would have a stroke over such a device today.) Motors, however, back then were low compression things. No piston rings.

As the cars became more complex, newer problems developed but, most always had a hard linkage backup for important things, like brakes. Blow the power servo, and brakes could still be used. The introduction of the double well cylinder enabled brakes to function if a line broke. The hand brake – not wise to use at high speed – was/is a safety measure. It can, by intermittent use, slow a speeding car when all of the standard breaking fails.

Radiators got better by using aluminum instead of steel or copper. Then antifreeze was added. However, the main cooling factor is now regulated in many cars by an electric fan. Blow that when driving, and you over heat. Pros and cons there. The slip clutch and fixed engine fan guaranteed cooling so long as the engine ran. However, the electric fan provides a higher volume of cooling air through a smaller radiator and a steady stream when stopped, when the engine connected fan would normally slow down.

You could field fix a broken fan belt on a hot road. With a burned out electric radiator fan, you’re screwed.

Not everyone has the financial backing to afford the rising costs of tow trucks and increasingly expensive specialized parts.

From what I hear, VW is coming out with an engine that doesn’t need gasoline. It’s like a strong magnety-type thing . . . and no, I don’t have a link.

That’s interesting. I’ve often wondered if there could be an alternative to internal combustion motors. I recall that the original VW motor was a marvelous little thing. Mechanics loved it because, if they had to, the thing popped right out after removing a few bolts and two regular guys could lift it by hand.

Do the new VWs have A/C? A/C requires a radiator and VW air cooled engines don’t have them.

>> A/C requires a radiator and VW air cooled engines don’t have them.

Not true. The AC radiator (condenser) has nothing to do (AFAIK) with the engine’s radiator.

I don’t think VW even makes an air-cooled engine any more. It’s a moot point, but no, the radiator has nothing to with the AC condensor.

iampuhna, I’m sorry but I’m kind of chuckling here. A strong magnety-type thing? You don’t mean an electric motor do you?

And isn’t it about time for dal tigmar to wander in here and spout his planned obsolesence shtick?

According to Maxim magazine, the final authority on automobiles, a company is working on fuel cell technology being used in cars in 5 years. You could use fuel cells in cars today but the cost is so prohibitive that it just doesn’t end up being worth while.

New car technology has generally been good for the public. We have vehicles that are safer, belch out less pollution, and with proper maintanence last a long time. And in the very near future the dependence of petroleum for automotive locomotion will either lessen signifigantly or end entirely.

Marc