Yes! Obviously.
I still don’t get your point.
And this is dangerous and poisonous thinking. Of course American Jews have been safe throughout American history; there used to be discrimination in employment and housing, but we’ve never had pogroms or been denied citizenship. Overall for the last 250 years, this has been one of the best places in history to be Jewish. And if, God willing, we evolve further toward the ideal of secular, multicultural democracy, it will continue to get better.
The underlying implication of saying “We never will be safe” is that “anti-semitism” is somehow built into the structure of existence, that goyim will always hate us irrationally no matter what we do. And that implies that we can just do whatever we feel like and it won’t really affect anyone else’s opinion of us. Which is obviously bullshit. Unless you want to argue that, for example, the massive swing in American public opinion in the last few years has nothing to do with the atrocities in Gaza, and the fact that these things occurred simultaneously is mere coincidence.
2,000 years of history proves that this is indeed true. We were as inoffensive, meek, and quiet as humanly possible for 2,000 years and what did it get us?
I think he thinks it’s all PR, and any Israeli atrocities have been irrelevant to that change in opinion.
Really?? You see some neo-Nazi punk and get the irresistible urge to bomb Dresden?
No, but Nazi war crimes actually harmed Germany, and even Germans around the world. Right?
So, the Bundists lost. It happens. But this sort of 20-20 hindsight is worthless. If, God forbid, some jihadi nuts get hold of nuclear weapons and wipe Israel off the map, would that prove that Zionism had always been an “epically shitty idea”? No, it would mean that people did the best they could in the circumstances they found themselves in, and it didn’t work out because they couldn’t see into the future.
No, it would not mean that Jewish self determination is a bad idea, and if Israel was rendered uninhabitable I think Jews should still pursue self determination elsewhere.
The difference is that the ideas behind Bundism directly led to the results. Bundists said “we don’t need self determination, we just need to make a place for ourselves in this non-Jewish society” which is a great idea in theory if you ignore the fact that historically non-Jewish societies tend to get tired of their Jewish minorities and prosecute them eventually.
And the idea that America is somehow exempt from this trend is laughable.
We were victims of Christian anti-Semitism in Europe for 2000 years, because anti-Semitism fit the ideological needs of the ruling classes. This is not a general statement that applies in all times and places.
(Also, the genuinely “inoffensive and meek” Jews just converted to Christianity. We are descended from the folks who had the courage to maintain their identity even in the face of great oppression)
Way ahead of you. God notwithstanding.
If it’s all Christianity’s fault then why did Muslim polities prosecute Jews too?
That often wasn’t enough to work out well even for them:
If anything, that supports my point even more. Even if you went so far as to abandon Judaism, the Christians and Muslims who forced you to convert might still persecute you. And of course, atheist oppressors like the Nazis and Communists didn’t care if you stopped practicing or became non-Jewish.
Well, I must confess that, other than in the strictly ethnic sense, I have a hard time thinking of Ben-Gvir as a real Jew. Certainly his religion is not Judaism, at least in any form that would have been recognizable to any rabbi a hundred years ago. At least you and other secularists are honest about having rejected the Torah.
I’m sure the feeling is mutual. I think you are both wrong.
Ok? And Rabbinical Judaism would not have been recognized as Judaism by any Iron Age Kohen. So what?
I haven’t “rejected the Torah” and frankly it’s pretty offensive that you think you can dispense judgement about who is and is not a Jew, whether that’s directed at me or at an odious piece of slimy shit like Ben Gvir.
Lior Schlein captures my feelings very well (it’s in hebrew but with English captions):
A. They started it.
B. Twice
C. I’m not defending Jewish ethno-fascists living in Israel any more than I accuse Germans for Kanye West and Nick Fuentes. And neither do you, I assume.
D. Jews tend to get lumped in with whatever Israel does.
Funny story…
In 1982, a week or so after Sabra and Shatila, a friend and I were returning home late in the evening, literally a block from my friend’s house when a car pulled up next to us and we were jumped by 4 guys. Fortunately they didn’t have any deadly weapons and they likely took some pity when they noticed we were barely 18 while they were University age. Being a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, they were pretty confident of their targets. They first asked us what we thought about Sabra and Shatila before they proceeded to throw hands and kick us. Good times.
We’re on about the fourth level of sidetrack here, but of course the Communists would accept Jews who disavowed Judaism (like, for instance, Marx). It would have been completely inconsistent with their ideology not to do so. Which is not to deny that many Communists were/are inconsistent in that particular way. But you’d be hard pressed to find an example of a Communist government that wasn’t significantly less anti-semitic than the regime it replaced. In the USSR, we faced significant discrimination in educational and occupational spheres (as well as, obviously, prohibitions on religious activities); in Czarist Russia, we faced all those, plus frequent outbreaks of mass murder.
…you are aware that there was in fact mass murder of Jews in the USSR, right…?
So would all of the ethnic cleansing that the Soviets did to Ukranians, Tartars, Chechens, and so on…
This is nonsense. “Who started it” is entirely irrelevant at this point. Whoever started it is long dead.
None of this is remotely a defense or excuse for Israeli atrocities.
I’m still not sure what your overall point is. You appear to accept the fact of multiple ongoing Israeli lead and allowed atrocities and brutality and violations of rights. You appear to accept that, right now, all the power lies with the Israeli government and military. You even appear to accept that 100% non violence by all Palestinians including Hamas would probably not end these atrocities and violations of rights.
So what is your point in this thread? What am I missing?
You literally just said a few posts up that you couldn’t find a way to discuss the Talmudic teachings relating to violent resistance outside the Pit. OK, granted the Talmud is not the Torah, and the Torah does indeed have a lot of racist and genocidal material in it.
So I agree with you that Zionism represents as radical a break with Rabbinic Judaism as Rabbinic Judaism did with Temple Judaism. I just don’t think it’s a step in the right direction.
And I never claimed to be dispensing judgment about who is and isn’t a Jew. That’s what halachah is for. My statement about Ben-Gvir was a hyperbolic expression of disgust, not an actual questioning of his Jewish status. I agree with Lior Schleien that eating treif and ignoring the Sabbath doesn’t make him non-Jewish, and that he has the right to make those choices. But I don’t agree that somehow religious Jews are forbidden to have or express opinions about those choices.
I thought it would be clear that A, B, C were just funny asides and that D and what followed would be the more relevant illustration of what I was trying to convey.
I blame myself. Being away from SDMB for a few years, I forgot about the prevalent pedantry and general lack of sense of humour.