I don’t care what your political views are but applauding someone’s assasination is deplorable. That’s a disgraceful comment to make and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Moreover, how many are too many? Holland has taken in a disproportinal number of immigrants vis-a-vis its size. Further, the majority of these immigrants are from Moslem countries which, whether you like to hear it or not, presents significant social and cultural hurdles. Perhaps a moratorium on immigration would allow both camps to settle and assimilate. Introducing more and more immigrants into the situation is as dangerous as any political rhetoric.
What is your problem exactly?
I was trying to use the least offensive language possible and you make a problem of it?
What would you have me call them then : foreigners?
You hit the nail on the head. (By the way : I am a he).
I think “imported Dutchmen” sounds a lot more inclusive than “Turk” or “Marrocan” or “scary person of color”.
Immigration is at an all-time low in the Netherlands.
This is because it is almost impossible to get a permit to stay.
Most asylum-seekers get returned within a few weeks.
The problem isn’t the fact that people are muslim or not.
The problem is that some people belong to groups which are unemployable and get send to the worst schools. (The so-called “Black schools”).
When youths have no way of escaping this fate, they will look for other means.
That is why crimininality under these groups is much higher than under other groups and why a lot of them get indoctrinated by hate-spreading radical Imams.
gum: Would you call the Greek black? Italians? Spaniards?
No. Me neither.
Yeah, but the vast majority of Muslim immigrants to the Netherlands are not Greek, Italian, or Spanish, are they? Do most Dutch really consider Muslim immigrants from Morocco to be “white”?
Yep.
Okay then, thanks for clearing that up for me. But in that case, what is meant by expressions like “zwarte en witte scholen” (“black and white schools”)?
Here’s an example:
Kimstu, you’ve asked that very same question in another thread about the Dutch. I’m sorry. I haven’t got the time, or inclination to go search for it.
Hope you enjoy Holland. 
Nope
They normally aren’t called ‘black’ , that’s for actual black people, The majority of which come from the Antilles and Surinam.
Others are indeed called ‘foreigners’, the ones that stick out most are of course Muslims.
You have to take into account that for some 20 years it was ‘forbidden’ to even refer to foreigners as ‘foreigners’. They had to be called ‘fellow-Dutch’ or other PC euphemisms.
During the 80’s there were certainly rumblings about the large number of what were then called ‘Guest-workers’, coming into our country. There was, even then, a political party that voiced the concerns of a large group of Dutch. The Centrum Party. They were indeed more openly racist and consequently shot down by the Media and established politics.
During the 80’s and 90’s it was absolutely ‘not done’ to voice your concerns in public. If you did you were immediately branded ‘Fascist’ , meaning an end to any discussion.
The rumblings were still there, of course but anything to do with the subject was very actively ignored and toned down by politics and the media.
It wasn’t until Pim Fortuyn that the subject exploded back onto the public stage.
Again The shouting of ‘Fascist’ and the anti-campaigns raged against Fortuyn, but somehow it just didn’t quite stick.
And a lot of people were relieved that suddenly they could actually say some of the things again that they had just been thinking to themselves. Namely a simple resentment against the large number of foreigners in ‘our’ streets nowadays. That they weren’t all that glad all of the time about multi-culturalism being forced down their throats. That a very large part of Maroccan and Antillan youth were indeed criminal.
Well, Pim was murdered but not before mainstream politics had incorporated ‘tough talk on immigration’ into their agenda, to take some of his votes away. As a consequence immigration policy has indeed become a lot stricter, sometimes overshooting the mark.
The murder of Pim has had the subject closed too abrubtly and also because of 9/11 and the murder of van Gogh it is still very much alive. There really are quite a few people that are now very concerned about the future of Islam in Holland. That the magic word ‘Integration’ isn’t working quite as imagined.
Absolutely not.
I don’t know where you live in Holland, but that is absolutely not the case.
Most people in the Netherlands call them “Marrocans” or “foreigners”.
I agree with most of your post, but I think people are exaggerating the problem.
In 2 or 3 generations these problems should resolve themselves.
The biggest problem, I feel, is the socalled “black” schools.
These schools mainly consist of immigrants children and coloured Dutch people.
A lot of these schools have problems with the kids.
If they discipline these children, they get accused of racism, so teachers do not discipline certain children anymore.
These children also get no guidance whatsoever at home (this is especially the case with a large part of our Marrocan population and has to do with their heritage as most of these come from small mountain villages).
These kids are not getting the best of education and see around them that their brothers and sisters aren’t capable of getting a decent job.
If people feel disenfranchised they become easy prey for extremists and criminals.
It is exactly this that more and more people are starting to doubt.
Until recently people did think that the immigrants were integrating into Dutch society. The murder of van Gogh and rise of radical Islam have cast serious doubt on the question of how many will indeed become really Dutch or will there always be a divide. If so then the large number of them is cause for concern when they start to become a majority. What if in 20 years they outnumber the real Dutch?
Well, I think the main issue with ‘black’ and ‘white’ school is not do so so much with racial issues as much as the educational level at black schools.
The number of actual ‘recent immigrant’ children and the ‘lower class’ background of a lot of the ‘established’ immigrant children (as you have indicated) severely brings down the level of education children can receive in those schools.
Many middle class and ‘more integrated’ foreigners actually do not want their children in black schools either, because of this.
It is however relevant to the discussion that the problem of black schools is indicative of the fact that Holland has taken on too many immigrants. The infra structure just can’t take it any more.
Kimstu: *But in that case, what is meant by expressions like “zwarte en witte scholen” (“black and white schools”)? *
gum: *Kimstu, you’ve asked that very same question in another thread about the Dutch. *
I don’t think so, although I did ask it once before in this thread (post #15). I still don’t know whether the names “black” and “white” for schools are meant to refer to the prevailing racial color of the children in them, or whether they mean something else.
gum: *Hope you enjoy Holland. *
Yes thanks, very much! The language is still kind of throwing me, though.
I agree with you 99%.
I do doubt whether the Netherlands are as full as like to believe.
I think the problem is more that these immigrants are clumped together too much.
We are starting to see ghetto’s being formed which consist of mainly immigrants with their own supermarkets and mosques.
This is unfortunately something we can hardly do anything about.
I do think that the new rules for immigrants which force them to learn the Dutch language and culture is a very good step.
The reason I think this will resolve itself is because these people who are causing problems will grow up, get married and have children.
They will probably want their children to succees in society so they will instill the necessity of getting a good education and not hang out in the streets all day, like they did when they were their age.
I could very well be mistaken, but I do hope that this will be the case.
By the way : my last post was directed at Latro.
Black schools as they are called in the Netherlands are schools in problematic areas (mostly the cities) where a large part of the students are of non-Dutch descendance.
A white school is a school which is mainly frequented by white children of Dutch origin.
Most people would not want their children to go to a black school, because there are problems with school-violence, clique-forming, discrimination and the quality of education is a lot worse.
The problems with immigrants are but one side of Wilders’ appeal.
Another one, which also surfaced with Pim Fortuyn is that more and more people realise they are not living in an actual democracy.
The perception that those who govern us are not our representatives but an aristocratic elite that are only in it for themselves, not to govern the state of the Netherlands.
That the public party politics are just a way to throw dust into the faces of the people.
Once the voters have cast their votes it’s all backroom talk, the slogans are forgotten, the party programm is forgotten. Whether they call themselves socialist, workers party, christian democratic, it doesn’t matter. They are the same grey mice from the same background and education.
All of them are really aiming for that cushy job in Brussels. The game of getting there is what passes for politics in Holland, not running the country. Most ministers want to get their names in the picture with a nice ringing project and don’t want to touch any real problems because of the fear that their decisions just might stain their carreer.
This has the effect that problems are just ignored and allowed to fester.
Problems with immigrants, social security, education, health care and the actual quality of our medical facilities it is all ignored. While it is all going down the drain, alarmingly fast.
I would say that this was the most important factor in Fortuyn’s success and he is unjustly depicted as just a capitalising on racial resentment among the lower educated.
Wilders is very much his successor. He, however lacks quite the charisma Pim had and his emphasis is more on the problems with Islam. Not that odd when your life is actually under threat from that side.
Aside from the problem of getting any three Dutch to agree, this is also confusing because the three of you seemed to agree based on your follow-up remarks. There are two separate questions implied in the original exchange between gum and Kimstu :
Are Moroccans considered white?
Are Moroccans considered black?
My guess from your answers is that Moroccans are not seen as black,
but that there are different perceptions as to whether they are considered white (similar to the old “Caucasian” racial category) or “not white” (indicating not Northern European white).
Am I close?
Correct, Moroccans are not considered as ‘black’ more as ‘coloured’ or ‘brown’ or just ‘foreigner’. Indeed just names to indicate non-Dutch.
We do have people that are called ‘black’ or neger in dutch.
I live in de pijp in Amsterdam, Vinryk 
If I may - and I hope the reciever of this mail won’t mind - here’s a mail of mine explaining ‘the situation’ to a foreigner.
"Theo van Gogh, yeah.
I agree that the Dutch don’t look too good. What with all our ‘tolerance’ and shit.
Ofcourse it started long before van Gogh’s murder. Even Pim Fortuijn’s murder [by an aminal-right’s activist] wasn’t the start.
About 30 years ago, when the first immigrants from Morroco and Turkey arrived [nearly all muslims] we were ‘tolerant’ instead of helping them feeling at home in the Netherlands.
They came here, because the Netherlands had a good economy then and we were looking for people who were willing to do the jobs we were too lazy to do.
They weren’t highly educated people. Most were [and are] illiterate.
We ought to have done more to understand their culture and more to make them understand ours. Not because they ought to have made that their own, but because it would have been easier for both sides if we had understood each-other.
Instead we did what we always do: “They’re different, but that’s okay. We’re tolerant”.
Now that first wave of immigrants have kids.
I have to say: Those kids got every bit as much chances as the Dutch kids. No difference in housing, education, etc.
But ofcourse, the gap stayed.
Their parents relied on the Dutch government to raise their children. And that - we didn’t.
We figured that, when we gave them the same opportunities as the Dutch, all would go well. Ofcourse it didn’t.
The parents still don’t speak Dutch and have no clue what their kids are doing at school. Or IF they go to school.
The kids are confused between the liberal Dutch world and the strict muslim teachings their father [and uncles and Imams] give.
They rebel - like all kids rebel at a certain age.
But because their parents’ lack of understanding the Dutch ways [for example: They believe that Allah is above our laws] the rebelious nature of the kids take different forms than those of the natives.
Lying and stealing is accepted. It’s normal. That is: If you lie to, or steal from, a non-muslim. The kids learn that from the - often radical - Imams.
And then there’s the Bin Laden thing.
He’s a hero to those kids. Why? Because he represents the proud muslim. The pride young muslims around here often miss.
Kids at kindergarten have a photo of Mohammed Bayouri [the guy who killed van Gogh] in their pockets and the first words they learn how to write is: “Fuck Nederland”.
And yes, that’s when irritation and discrimination by the Dutch kick in.
And you know what: It’s OUR fault.
We ought to have done more for them, but we didn’t and I’m not sure how we’re going to solve this.