Very worrying, a radicalised population of immigrants in Holland will become the majority in major cities in this generation. I’m all for change but if we see Sharia and intolerance generated against people like Theo Van Gogh and the Somalian woman who is against the form of Islam which has oppressed many of its people which is practised widely in Holland, what will happen? When will people wake up and realise that in the pursuit of tolerance and acceptance, we may be threatening our own cultures and practises, which we’ve fought countless wars for be lost or pernmantely damaged?
You can tell me that ‘a culture deserves to die if it cannot change’ but how about the viewpoint of ‘if a imported culture cannot assimiliate, why should we tolerate it, if it threatens the nations very existance?’
This is how radicalised the community has become, its martyred a common robber because of his heritage in that community, thats how bad it had become in some parts of Holland, what is to be done?
What will it take until we realise theres a massive problem with Muslim intergration in Europe. I for one believe immigrant populations should be encouraged to assimilate into the host culture they’re living in, not to become ghettoised or segregated amongst other cultures, or to feel a sense of superiority either.
The most tolerant society on earth has rejected the very notion of Multiculturalism and the acceptance of communities which refuse to intergrate at all. I say its a step in the right direction, preservation of European values and traditions are a must and should be tought to the people who come to this continent in seeking a better life.
Actually, they are rejecting the second, but not the first. That is simply your desire for them. There are Dutch who are speaking against multiulturalism, now, in the context of intransigent Fundamentalist Muslims, but there has not been some overwhelming rejection of all muticultural values throughout Dutch society.
Just a thought, if the people who migrated to Europe because of oppression were given a chance at democratic rule then maybe they would stay and embrace their own culture.
There are events in motion that are driven from both outside and inside forces:
The Taliban was removed and a democratically elected government is underway.
Saddam Hussein is gone and Iraqis risked death to vote for something better.
Saudi Arabia is toying with elections for the first time.
Lebanese citizens protested (en masse) against their Syrian backed government - which stepped down.
Iraqi citizens protested (en masse) against insurgent attacks
Syria turned over Saddam’s half brother along with a couple dozen of his friends
The Palestinians have a new leader who is not locked into terrorism.
These events are the result of both the process of nation building and the individual desire to be free. Time will tell.
All you need to do in Europe is what you’ve always done, support democracy in whatever way you can.
And FWIW, the idea of Multiculturalism is nothing but a politically correct way of describing cultural isolationism. The true value of immigrants lies in the concept of a melting pot. That is what makes a nation strong and united.
Not if they can earn a better living in a foreign country. And they can. And Europe needs them, because of the graying population. That’s how it is, and there’s nothing to be done about it. The only question for the future is how far the immigrants are going to be culturally assimilated into their new homelands – and that depends as much on how accepting the older population is of them, as on the immigrants’ own attitudes. In the United States, the African-Americans have been here longer than any other minority save the Indians; but they still haven’t entirely assimilated to the mainstream national culture, because until quite recently they haven’t been allowed to. (As a result, they have, not an African culture, but their own unique American subculture, one that exists nowhere outside the United States.) But the Germans, Irish, Jews, Italians, Scandahoovians, etc., who didn’t start arriving in significant numbers until the 1840s or later, hardly seem different from Anglo-Saxons at all, any more. Which path would you Europeans rather see your new immigrants follow?
Clashes such as those described in the OP are always to be regerted. But, I have to say that this sort of thing has been going on the US for generations and we’re still a vibrant democracy. I have every confidence that the Dutch can work their way thru this as well. Will there be overreactions? Almost certainly there will be. But I don’t see any Western Democracy turning into a complete xenophobic, totalitarian state in the near future.
Absolutely. Now look at the political makeup of the most successful countries in the world market. Democracy is the engine that makes these economies run. Or put another way, the freedom to earn a living. Without freedom and a stable government there is no way to invest one’s time or money without fear of having it taken away.
Decades? Russia will be the example of the time involved. I’ll give it a decade because I believe that wealth is not the only force that drives someone from Egypt to the Netherlands. I would chose 3 square meals a day (in my country) over a move to France. Nothing against France but I’m not French.
As a Dutchman, I have to say you got it spot on. This also doesn’t really have all that much to do with the recent incidents - this movement, already present at the time slightly less prominently represented by Frits Bolkestein, was set in motion when the late Pim Fortuyn* demonstrated there was a big resentment within the Dutch community against the lack of integration of some immigrants, making some ‘natives’ feel like they lived in a foreign country.
At this time however, severe restrictions on immigration had already been set in motion by the VVD (who call themselves liberals, which means the opposite here of what it means in the US, so they are conservatives, basically). In the year that people voted for Pim Fortuyn, immigration had already been reduced to 1/3rd of what it used to be.
And so the OP is a bit out of touch with what’s really going on. Together with stronger extradition enforcement for people who did not acquire a permanent residence permit (your green card, I suppose), I think the most striking thing that’s happening now is that immigrants have to learn Dutch even before they immigrate.
Also, I’d like to point out that unlike the OP says, Amsterdam is already at 60% and that’s the whole population, not just young adults.
I also agree with another poster that the insistance of the OP on ‘Muslim’ integration makes him a bit suspect.
Pim Fortuyn, for those who missed it, was shot by a husband and father of a one year old, who dedicated his life fighting to preserve the environment (most prominently through clever use of legal procedures, thousands each year).
Couldn’t agree more. However what you are describing has (perhaps “was”, things are changing) for a long time met with derision and accusations of wanting to assimilate the immigrants – which again was a byword for racism.
No. What Europe need is highly educated, skilled & easily integrated immigration. Not unskilled immigrants with a culture averse to education. And as for that. Do we really want to be known as the continent that vacuum the third world for their skilled labour they so desperately need themselves, because we couldn’t be bothered to reproduce ourselves?
Actually Pim Fortuyn was shot by a killer whom thus dedicated his life to taking an innocent life and obstructing democracy – much like the killer of Theo van Gogh. Nothing remarkable there, just scum doing as scum do.
Also the Dutch in large numbers seem to have started to vote with their feet.
One wonders how much of the friction over immigration in the Netherlands is due to culture, and how much is due to the fact that the Netherlands is simply overcrowded. The Netherlands is still taking in a pretty substantial flow of immigrants despite being, by any reasonable measure, an extremely densely populated country.
I’m not trying to minimize the effects of cultural clashes, but Canada now has twice the migration rate of the Netherlands, and there isn’t nearly the sort of strife and friction I’m hearing about in the Netherlands - some, perhaps, but immigration here is overwhelmingly successful. I don’t believe the Dutch are any less tolerant than we are. I DO believe, however, that it is a hell of a lot easier for a country that is essentially empty, and that even in its populated regions is sparsely populated, to take in large number of immigrants than it is for a country that is essentially totally urbanized and that has a population density 150 times higher.
If you were to stuff everyone in Canada into New Brunswick, would our relatively mild attitude towards immigration last?
If the Netherlands were to take large numbers of immigrants from any OTHER place - say, droves of Danes, or armies of Americans, or platoons of Poles - don’t you think you’d have the same problem of many people crowding into little space?
American liberals looking to flee the tyranny and escape to freedom in Europe? You looking for a new how BG?
I think this pretty much hits it on the head. Certainly lauguage and culture are factors, but overcrowding ALWAYS causes tensions that magnify any little difference.
Because Muslim immigration is the biggest debate going on in my country, and they make up a substantial proportion of immigration. The only objection I have to immigration is us taking in people with no skills or who are unable to make a significant contribution to society, which promotes cultural isolation and extremism.
To me that article seems to be full of a lot of unfounded hysteria and badly researched. Mr. Konings says he lives in Hilvarensbeek and his children are “afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids.” Hilvarensbeek is a little village in Brabant that has almost no “foreign kids”. Also, when Mr. Konings says his son just had his fifth bicycle stolen, I would bet a lot of money that it was some Dutch kid who stole his bike every time.
I could understand if somebody living in Amsterdam Bijlmer, Utrecht Kanaleneiland, or Rotterdam Zuid would feel a little uncomfortable, but f***ing Hilvarensbeek? :dubious: Give me a break! Also, Mr. Hiltemann says there is increased interest in Dutch people emigrating, but I would like to see if the numbers have actually increased. This sounds a lot like all those Democrats threatening to emigrate to Canada if Bush wins a second term.
And this:
is just plain bull hockey. Ali B. was never martyred. It was just a couple of idiots acting like idiots (and even having their idiocy tolerated! Ain’t that a hoot!). Maybe Ryan_Liam should ask some of the dopers who live here in Holland instead of getting his information from journalists who have no idea. I don’t get the feeling that Dutch society has become less tolerant of foreigners. I think they have just become less tolerant of radicals and all forms of radicalism.
The thing is, that the Netherlands needs those immigrants because it is quickly becoming a country of old people, and the birthrate in Dutch families is too low to lower the average age. this represents a huge problem for the Dutch economy and government. The only way to keep the demographics becoming completely skewed is by allowing immigration of young people.
