Rape is a capital crime? Since when? Name one state where rape is punishable by the death penalty.
Holmes: First - sorry, forgot it was about this new revision specifically. Can’t find the exact wording of this law, so it’s not clear to me what the parameters of consent are, in this case. In some states, your “awareness” of withdrawn consent is not a factor. If there is any evidence of force, you’re in trouble. Beyond that, it’s he said/she said…
He said:
"…he’s at the “the point” and quite frankly isn’t aware of anything else. "
He’s honestly not aware of her displeasure.
Awareness doesn’t matter, right? But what does the jury perceive? (or, what does the DA portray this as)
This is your idea of consensual sex, wherein you’re not aware of your partner? Not aware of her displeasure? So, not very interested in her pleasure, either. Just yours. That’s all you know, right? Oh, you knew she was there - you called her a pet name - but yet you frankly say you weren’t aware of her response, or displeasure, or struggle, or tears… Your actions were based on your knowledge of your own pending orgasm, right? In other words, you knew you were using force to bring about your own orgasm… and that is all you knew…
I’m not a lawyer (duh!), so I’m sure the DA would be able to make a better case than I have here…
How many people (men included) really believe that there is this “point” where you are not responsible for your own actions?
And if you’re really not aware that there is someone else involved - why bother? Why not just masturbate, or buy one of those dolls? No worries about false charges or silly misunderstandings then, right?
Again, this wouldn’t be addressing the law behind consent - this pertains to the jury’s perception of your character.
Holmes, I don’t think you’re a hole. But a jury might, based on your attitude about sex…
Google it. Rape is a capital offense. Pick one here.
If you reread specifically my post, I did not argue wither way. That is a position some people hold, with some evidence. Get angry at them if you want.
Cry me a river. If she says stop, you stop. Period. Your blue balls are your problem. Frankly, any man that would try to use this argument as an excuse for rape doesn’t have any balls anyway.
I think the “excruciating pain” is pretty exaggerated anyway. It’s never happened to me and I’ve been “interrupted” many times by ringing phones, a crying baby etc. If it’s really a problem for you go beat off. The other person has no obligation to finish you off no matter what may have occurred previously.
There’s that context problem again…annaplurabelle. As i say, this was based off of Lee’s scenario. In which a couple having sex, when the guy hears no and turns into name calling rapist…but you’re okay with that scenario. That scenario which i did quote BTW. I only used the material she provided, you have a problem then I suggest you consider the source material…before questioning my character or attitudes about sex.
Do me a favor? Re-Read Lee’s and mine and because obviously there’s a big miscommunication occuring here.
Lee
I await you response.
I agree…
I have experienced blue balls (the girl’s parents came home) and I can say it is decidedly uncomfortable but excruciating? No way. Getting caught by her parents would have been excruciating! Besides…it’s easily fixed. Run to the bathroom or home and jerk off and you’re fine.
No WAY in a million years should avoiding blue balls be any kind of defense for ANY behavior except tossing yourself off and I am unaware an excuse was ever needed for that anyway.
Did you bother to read any of those sites? Basically all you get is that Florida still has aggravated rape listed as a captial crime on its books but that the death penalty is not enforceable.
From the first site on your google list
So no, rape is not a capital offense in the United States. Read before you post.
This is just the point! It is the accusation that is horrible. Even if in the end nothing comes of it and the guy goes free. Imagine a firend of yours calls you from jail asking you to bail him out because he wahs just arrested for rape. Assume he is toally innocent do you think it won’t matter to him?
Whack-a-Mole, what is the alternative? I was serious when I asked you this before, and I’m serious now. Presumption of innocence, due process, and beyond a reasonable doubt are the best ideas we’ve had so far. Unless you’ve got a better idea…
Here’s the thing that bothers me. All you guys worried about this. Has it ever happened to you? A lot of people on these boards have said they were raped, and/or know people who were raped. Where are all these falsely accused people? I wish someone would come forward so we can learn about it from something other than hypothetical conjecture. Come on, you’re anonymous here. Fight ignorance and bear witness…
Holmes: Apologies for the out of context. Actually, I wouldn’t accept the original premise as a case where this new revision would apply. I did state this earlier on in the thread, if that matters… And I didn’t say anything about your character - except as how a DA might be able to portray it in court. And stressed that I didn’t think you were a hole (your original term). Context goes both ways…
DtheC: Yes, I read the first one. It’s on the books as a capital offence. And the “Since when?” implied you meant “never” to me, so… All I said was “google it”. Sorry.
Does God cut off your hands the moment you start having sex wth someone? Yeah, it’s a bit of a disappointment, but it’s better than raping someone. Still, it shocks me that people believe that the male orgasm is the defining end of a sexual encounter.
Nobody is argueing that “changing your mind in the morning” should constitute rape. Even in my “Women in the Culture of Violence” class at one of the most liberal universities imaginable, when we had the ultra-feminist head of the rape crisis center come in to speak to our class defined rape as “sex in a situation where the woman does not consent or unable to resist (as in being threatened, fully incapacitated, or attacked)”. They only count drunkeness against you if the girl is passed out to yhr point that she cannot speak to tell you “no”. The idea that it is rape to have sex with a woman who is drunk, or that it is rape if the woman regrets it in the morning is an urban legend. It is not seriously held by anyone, and certainly has no legal standing or the possibility of becomeing legal standing.
Lets look at what Copaesthetic said for a moment. He says he has seen false accusations in situations where nothing sexual ever took place. Isn’t that pretty ample evidence that false accusations are already so increadably easy to make that no change in the law is going to make it easier??? I’ll repeat- I can accuse somebody I have never even met of raping me, and that will presumably damage his reputation. How can defining continued intercourse after a woman says “stop” make it any easier than it already is to make a false accusation. Please answer this question.
I know you guys are scared. But you know what? I’m scared of being raped. I’m scared of being alone in the office with my employer. I’m scared of walking home at night. It sucks that it has to be this way, but at least theres a little equality. I’m just not sympathetic to your “wah wah I can’t pick up random drunk women from bars and have sex with them without having to think about what I’m doing and who I’m doing it with” complaints.
Not seriously held by anyone? Maybe ultra-liberal feminism has changed as I remember it somewhat differently:
[ul]
[li]The phallic malady is epidemic and systemic… each individual male in the patriarchy is aware of his relative power in the scheme of things… He knows that his actions are supported by the twin pillars of the State of man - the brotherhood ritual of political exigency and the brotherhood ritual of a sexual thrill in dominance. As a devotee of Thanatos, he is one with the practitioner of sado-masochistic “play” between “consenting adults,” as he is one with the rapist. [/li]-- Robin Morgan: The Demon Lover p.138-139
[li]“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” [/li]-- Robin Morgan, 1974
[li]…rape is the perfected act of male sexuality in a patriarchal culture-- it is the ultimate metaphor for domination, violence, subjugation, and possession. [/li]-- Robin Morgan
[li]“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” [/li]-- From Robin Morgan, “Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape” in “Going too Far”
[li]“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” [/li]-- Marilyn French, Author of “The Women’s Room”
[li]“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” [/li]-- Andrea Dworkin
[li]"Rape is the primary heterosexual model for sexual relating. [/li]Rape is the primary emblem of romantic love. Rape is the means by which a woman is initiated into her womanhood as it is defined by men.
– Andrea Dworkin
[li]Rape, then, is the logical consequence of a system of definitions of what is normative. Rape is no excess, no aberration, no accident, no mistake–it embodies sexuality as the culture defines it." [/li]-- Andrea Dworkin, *“The Rape Atrocity and the Boy Next Door” *
[li]And in the spectrum of male bahavior, rape, the perfect combination of sex and violence, is the penultimate (sic) act. Erotic pleasure cannot be separated from culture, and in our culture male eroticism is wedded to power."[/li]-- Susan Griffin, *Rape: The Politics of Consciousness
[li]“And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference.”[/li]-- Susan Griffin, *“Rape: The All-American Crime” *
[li]"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" [/li]-- Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will p. 6
[li]“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think thats too broad. I’m not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that.” [/li]-- Catherine MacKinnon, “A Rally Against Rape” Feminism Unmodified
[/ul]
Hey…you asked.
I also provided an example earlier where I was witness to a woman sending a guy to jail for something he didn’t do. Granted it wasn’t an accusation of rape but the concept is what counts here. I suppose it is possible I was witness to the one occurrence of this ever happening but somehow I doubt it.
As to making a false accusation being easy it is but making a false accusation that will get the attention of the police is a whole new level and worrisome.
Sorry…that should be ‘ultra-radical feminism’.
Since you asked, I was falsely accused of rape.
It happened when I was 19 and I was a party on campus. I got to talking and making out with this girl and she kept backing off and then starting things up again, and she kept saying we couldn;t do this because I had a girlfriend (which I did).
So finally I told her I was going to break up with my girlfriend, and that removed her inhibitions and we ended up (VERY consensually) having sex.
Over the next five days she kept calling me and wanting to get together, I had a mjor case of guilts and no intention of breaking up with my GF in the light of day. She kept calling me and asking if I had broken up with her yet and when we were going to get together.
Six days after the party she went to the campus police and accused me of raping her. I was arrested, handcuffed, they took fingerprints and mug photos, I was given a bond of $15,000.
We hired a lawyer: $3,000.
I gave him the phone messages she left for those five days, and he played them for the police, but they wouldn’t drop the charges. I had a prelimary hearing and a trial date was set. A trial where I could go to jail for years. Years. Finally her sister, who she had told the day after the party what really happened (before she came up with the rape version), came forward and told the cops what had happened and then the girl finally admitted what really happened. Charges were dropped, the police were going to charge her but they ended up not because she agreed to get counseling.
I never got my $3000 from the lawyer back.
And my GF did break up with me anyway, which I guess I deserved, it’s the only thing that happened to me that I did deserve.
So that is one man’s story of false accusation survival.
I’m very sorry that that happened, cole burner. It’s terrible. Though I don’t see how this law affects the case, and I definitely don’t think it demonstrates that a great number of rapes are false accusations of that kind, I can’t imagine how awful it must be to go through that.
Not held by anyone who should be taken seriously. And you don’t think view held by ‘ultra-radical feminists’ are held by a whole lot of everyday folk, do you?
Sorry, but the phrase here is “tough shit.” It’s not fun to stop like that, but if she asks, you do it, period. What the heck is rape if the guy’s (fictional) ‘right to finish’ outweighs the woman’s right to say no?
It is strictly unconstitutional (for the ‘cruel and unusual’ reason) to apply the death penalty for any crime other than murder. The Court ruled that in Coker v. Georgia in 1977. So it’s not a capital crime, and hasn’t been for more than 25 years.
The law is stupid. The only way that this law makes sense is for the state of Illinois to say: “Prior to this new law, once intercourse had begun, the man had the right to complete the act regardless of whether or not the woman wished to continue.”
If the state of Illinois admits to that quote, then the new law is a good one.
Heck, I’m in NJ, and since NJ DOESN’T have that law…
I, of course, would NEVER do such a thing. I’m just trying to make a point.
JJ, at best, that would make the law unnecessary. As others have mentioned, it doesn’t even really change the law, it’s an attempt to clarify this particular point.
It doesn’t have anything to do with this law or this case, I just posted it because even sven asked if anyone had had it happen to them.
I am sure that most women that say they were raped were actually raped, that’s why the small number of false accusers are even worse, they minimize what real rape victims have to suffer through.
First off I was responding to a statement about attitudes not “seriously held by anyone.” Clearly that is false. Further, while these particular women may be a bit off their nut, they are not operating in a vacuum or shouting at the wind. All the women I quoted have been authors and speakers and have gained sizeable followings. These aren’t loonies ranting on a street corner. Andrea Dworkin, for instance, has written at least a dozen books some of which have been bestsellers. Clearly someone is listening to her and not just a far-flung fringe if she manages to get published a dozen times and make the bestseller list.
Ultimately all of that was in response to the notion that guys are seeing boogie-men where there are none. It would be wrong to overstate the problem of false accusations but it is equally wrong to suggest such things don’t exist or that it is inconceivable that any woman might view rape in a particularly broad fashion.
You have two anecdotal stories here of a woman causing great trouble by unjustly accusing a man. Men have been released from jail in the past several years in somewhat alarming numbers now that DNA evidence proved conclusively that they did not commit the crime they were accused of…guys who spent 10-15 years in prison for that. You have evidence of women who do exist who define rape so broadly as to include just about any sexual intercourse regardless of consent. I’m not sure what more you want.
Understand that I am all for prosecuting rapists and tossing them in jail forever. If I felt this new law would do anything to improve the effort to remove rapists from society I would be all for it. My problem is that I do NOT see how this new law improves matters. I have a hard time conceiving of a situation where this law would get someone legitimately accused of rape where the previous laws would have let the guy walk. I suppose there will be a few but I do not think it is enough to counterbalance the possible abuse this law opens innocent men up to.
Oops, I only read Page 2 of this thread. I was wondering why no one was debating the “New Il. Rape Law”.
Ummmm…** Whack-a-Mole**? First off, a lot of those quotes say that rape is an expression of domination and patriarchy and a some of them state that all or almost all heterosexual sex is rape, but not a single one of them states that “It is rape if the woman is drunk” or "It is rape if she changes her mind afterwards*. Frankly I don’t know what half of your quote have to do with the subject at all.
Now there are people who state that all het sex is rape. Those people are speaking on a semi-metaphorical political scale. They are looking for a complete paradigm shift regarding gender. They believe that society is so fucked that we are all stuck in these gender roles to the point that we have essentially have no free will- and thus no ability to consent- and that this fucked-uppedness manifests itself as a violent patriarchy. In the 1970s (30 years ago, I might add) this was a big deal in academia. You know what was also a big deal in academia? The idea that you like to watch movies because you are afraid of getting your penis cut off. Academia is a wierd place, prone to odd metaphors, hyperbole and outright dreaminess. These academic women, 30 years ago, were pioneering a radical new way of understanding gender and envisioning a completely different world that would come of that. They were not actually advocating that all men who engage in sex should be tried and thrown in jail.
Now, I will grant that there are some people who believe right now that all men who have sex should go to jail. There are also people who believe that George W. Bush blew up the World Trade Center.
Additionally, there can be situations where a woman was raped, but not in a criminal way. Think of sex between minors below the age of consent and the like. There can also be non-consentual situations where there is nobody to blame (which may seem strange, but it’s personally happened to me) and where there is a violation, but not an offense. And there are cases where a man is slime, and certainly did violate someone, but did not rape them.
What you don’t see is police officers, rape crisis councilers, rape awareness agencies, courts, and other relevent people and organizations saying that a man should go to jail if he sleeps with a drunk but still conscious girl or that a man should go to jail if he sleeps with a woman and she changes here mind after the fact.