New roof installed, did not use plywood sheeting

When I was a teen we had a swimming pool installed in the back yard where there was adobe soil (swells when it is wet). The hole was dug then the subcontractor installed the rebar. The inspector came by, spent just a minute looking, then told my dad, “Lemme see your contract.” He then said he was rejecting the installation because the steel was on 12-inch centers and because of the soil, the area was zoned for 8-inch centers. He pointed to a paragraph in the contract with that spec and said that if anybody gave grief or tried to charge more to point that paragraph out.

Dad called the contractor who called the subcontractor who came out to make the job right, grumbling while he did so. Rather than tear it out and reinstall, he just doubled up everywhere making it 6-inch centers. In the corners you couldn’t even put your fist through, the spacing was so tight.

Just going to jump right in and repeat the advice that the language of the contract is the only thing that means anything. Plastic sheathing is remarkable stuff but is no substitute for plywood, and the contract would have said so specifically. I was involved in a six-figure maintenance contract for publiuc buildings and the contract specified zinc strips for moss control, which the low bidder just omitted without even a change order. We stopped payment and fired him and his crews because his work wasn’t up to contract spec, he made noises aboiut suing us, when his lawyer called ours, all he wanted to know was if the the contact specified zinc flashing. Yup. Was it installed? Nope. At least you have a healthy holdback if the job was done wrong, most construction companies don’t have much to sue.

Sorry I haven’t been back to this thread for so long. I was busy with work and the Holidays.

So the plywood was not put in writing. My parents never though to check because the rep for the contracting company was the one who told us the plywood had to be installed. That man is now working in another state (still for the company), but my parents called him and asked him why the plywood was not installed and he said he was on vacation the day the work was done. He has no idea.

The boss (manager, whatever) my parents spoke to (I’m not sure there were ever able to speak to the actual owner), said that it’s not in writing, so there not going to do anything about it. Soon after my previous post in this thread, when my parents first contacted the boss, the mere mention of the problems prompted him to state that if they do not receive the rest of the money by a certain date a lien would be placed on the house. My parents quickly paid the balance.

I checked the local building codes, and found that no permit is required, and the only requirement is for a certain number of nails to be used in each shingle ( 5 nails per shingle I think).

I E-mailed the company that makes the shingles and there reply was, “The IKO Limited Warranty is for manufacturing defects that result in leaks. Any issues that result from the shingles being installed over plank boards are not covered under the limited warranty. Buckling is a major concern in this case. Another concern is a considerable amount of nails may be driven into a shingle where there is a gap instead of into the wood board.”

So that sounds like the lack of plywood does not affect the warranty directly, but they may blame any problems on the lack of plywood.

Also, a few weeks after the roof was installed when a number of shingles were visibly not laying flat (the contractors said they’d all lay down in a few days after installation), after my parents called in a complaint the company sent a few guys to the house and they glued some of the shingles down with silicone. They said the shingles weren’t laying flat because it was cold when there were installed (the day after Thanksgiving, in Pennsylvania).

Wow, I feel bad for your parents. Lesson learned, always always always read the contract with a fine tooth comb. It’s likely they will be replacing this roof again in just a few years. There is no way that the slatted roof will support a snow load so they will get gaps and shingles tearing out which will ultimately cause interior leaks. I would also like to caution people from using contractors that are not local to your area. Many of these “national contractors” have crews come into an area for a short time then move to another state so when it comes to problems, no one can be easily contacted. A local contractor has a reputation to uphold and may be less likely to do shoddy work.

I have to disagree with the concerns folks are expressing about solid wood planks used for sheeting. Any house built before the 1970’s most likely has a conventionally framed roof (rafters- as opposed to trusses), and solid wood planking for sheeting. Some people seem to be envisioning what is called skip sheeting used for wood shingles in various areas. Skip sheeting is very rare and practically unheard of now-a-days. The gaps are not fractions of an inch, but several inches, about five or five and a half the few times I installed it. Composite or fiberglass shingles placed on skip sheeting would not last one season (also skip sheeting provides almost no moment or sheer strength).

Properly installed plank sheathing is almost as good as plywood and better than OSB in my opinion. It does not have the sheer strength of sheet goods, but as long as the wood itself is not rotten or so brittle it cracks every time a nail is driven into it, and it is properly nailed to the structural elements (rafter or truss), it is a fine surface for shingles. Three quarters of an inch is quite a bit of shrinkage, but there needs to be some gap between the boards so during humid times there is room for the planks to expand. The usual spacing is the diameter of a 16d nail, but if the wood was wet when installed that (approximate) 3/16th of an inch may have grown. About a half an inch is the most I have seen, and back when solid wood sheeting was common most construction lumber was kiln dried. It also seems unlikely to me that the planks had different thicknesses. Lumber yards have been producing S4S boards since forever; even if codes allowed it, the cost savings of using rough-sawn, wet lumber wouldn’t be worth it. On the other hand, unless the roof was designed for moment strength (sheer panel) the planks would not need to be structural grade or kiln dried. (Also you folks back east use a different building code than the UBC we use out west.)

In any case, a shingle can support itself across an occasional ¾” gap, and if the installers had any professionalism at all they would know if a nail missed entirely and drive another one to replace the shiner (can be seen from the underside because it is not in wood- it literally shines). In fact they should pull any shiner too. Even if they were using pneumatics and couldn’t tell from resistance if they hit or not, they almost certainly were using wide crown staples so even if one leg missed the other likely hit the plank.

Now I think spending thousands of dollars on home repairs and not even being there when they start and when they finish is foolhardy (especially if you had trouble with this very same work recently- personally I would have been there to be very sure I was getting what I was paying for). Still, there is no need to worry because they didn’t sheet over the planks. As long as they stripped all previous layers of shingles everything should be fine. That being said, I do have some concerns however. You are mentioning tabs sticking up or not laying flat. Does this roof have any round elements, or rolling pitches? What I am asking is, are all surfaces a flat plain? Because if there are tabs not lying flat that may indicate the shingles were not shipped or stored or installed properly. Shingles are bundled together and shipped flat on pallets for a reason. If random tabs are not laying flat on a flat surface…… why is that? Have they been riding around in the back of some truck all catawampus for a couple of weeks (or months)? Were they thrown up onto the roof and landed in a twisted position- then left that way for hours or days? Or most likely, were they installed in a buckled condition and do they have torque within them that will diminish their lifespan? (Picture the straight line at the top of the shingle being nailed so it has a slight ‘V’ to it- they put the first two staples/nails in while it was running very slightly down hill, then pulled the loose corner up to the correct height. This is a very typical rookie mistake. It will make the center tab want to lift up off the surface. And yes some warm days cause the weight of the tab to overcome the torque that is making it float above the surface. But that constant torque will cause the shingle to rip over time—a much shorter time than it should [i.e.: the warrantee period]. If you have several places with this condition, and potentially more were the error was not enough to make them float, that could shorten the lifespan of your roof. It may be possible for someone like a home inspector service to write a report that states the shingles were not installed properly (if they were in fact improperly installed).

Your folks shouldn’t have paid the balance when threatened, when a contractor knows they have liability they often bluff to avoid having to explain their actions to the registrar or someone else who knows the tricks and can spot their bullshit. In this case it sounds like they talked the folks into an overlay they didn’t need, put the cost into the price but left it out of the contract, and once your folks signed it – cancelled the sheeting and pocketed the cash. The supervisor might have even been sent out of town because he spoke up for your parents. (I can picture this exchange:
Supervisor: “I sold them the upgrade; we make the profit, let’s just give them what I promised them.”
Owner: “They signed the contract without the plywood in it, they are okay paying that price.”
Supervisor: “They are okay paying that because they think they are getting plywood underlayment.”
Owner: “They should have read it before they signed it, buyer beware.”
Supervisor: “But it is just …….”
Owner: “Don’t worry about this. I will take care of it, but I need you to go to Michigan tomorrow …”)

It might be worth paying for an inspection, or at least contacting a company to see if it is an option and how much it might cost. Are your parents okay with the price if the roof lasts for twenty or thirty years? If so, then don’t fret the three quarter inch gaps in the planks; it is unlikely more than a few nails hit nothing. The lack of plywood or OSB is not a critical factor; there are a hundred things more important. How steep is this roof (what is the pitch)? Does it have Yankee Gutters? Do you get lake effect snow? Does the accumulated snow on your roof freeze and thaw every day (expand- contract, repeat day after day)? Did the installers do a proper job? How long does ice/snow/water stay on your roof after a storm? Do you get strong sustained winds or very strong gusts of wind often? How often? How strong?

My experience is in CA, where snow is not an issue. But we get lots or rain in the winter some seasons. The house I live in originally had a roof installed like the OP. I think it was done in the 50s. I replaced it about 6 years after moving in, but only because I figured the shingles were old (and ugly) and needed to be replaced. I never had any leaks, nor do I think the previous owners had any, but I did have plywood put down before the new shingles went on.

I think it is more clear cut than that.

From IKO

Your parents paid for shingles that came with a warranty.
The roofer installed them in a way that voids that warranty.

It seems to me the roofer has some liability in this case.

From the IKO Roofing Products Application Instructions:

The roofer did not follow manufacturer’s installation instructions, which is a violation of building code. Building codes apply whether a permit is required or not. Contact the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction - generally the department which issues building permits).

What county are you in? As Marvin alluded to, building codes generally let manufacturer’s instructions trump. However, a very, very quick glance says that most of PA follows the Uniform Construction Code, which closely follows the International Construction Code. Section 1507.2.1 says “Deck requirements. Asphalt shingles shall be fastened to solidly sheathed decks”.

However, I don’t know, because I didn’t dig into it, if that’s only for new work or if repairs (re-reroofing) is counted in that as well. But there it is.

Remember that this is an existing roof being reshingled. They may be allowed to simply replace the shingles without bringing the rest of the roof up to code.

Scroll down to Section 1511 (or Ctrl-F for Reroofing) here (part of the IBC). The way I’m reading it, it says nothing about that.
However, I’ll freely admit that I’m not familiar with how that code works, it’s the first time I’ve attempted to read it. Also, as I mentioned earlier, PA seems odd in that it adopted the IBC. With their amendments, it’s called the UCC and each county seems to have had the choice to adhere to it (most did) if they wanted to. I could be wrong, but I have to assume that any county that didn’t adopt the UCC, just has their own version of it, which is probably extremely similar.

This is the principle that if the roof framing met building code when it was built, then we don’t have to upgrade this to current code when we’re just repairing it. However, we’re not replacing old wooden cedar shingles with more wooden cedar shingles, we’re upgrading the materials to asphalt three-tabs.

This is all academic to the OP, it appears PA has no construction contracting licensing requirements, thus it is highly doubtful the contractor carries a performance bond in that State … thus it looks like the only way to get restitution is through a lawsuit in State court (= expensive).

One thing bothers me in this whole story … the roof was re-done in 2001 and the shingles began failing by 2005, so that the whole job had to be re-done again in 2017 … how odd to spend this kind of money in 2001, have the job all but completely fail, then spend this money again in 2017 … and be off on a hunting trip when the work is being done … so there’s a part of this sad tale that says the father in the OP deserves what he got … it’s possible he just didn’t check as to why the 2001 roof failed so quickly, but more likely he jumped for the lowest bid and was off hunting without a care about the matter …

It’s worth repeating our favorite Click-and-Clack-izm: “It’s the cheapskate who spends the most” …

I noticed that as well. I was so wrapped up in the code part of the question I forgot to ask why the OP’s parents didn’t make a warranty claim on the first roof, or at least question why it fell apart so quickly to make sure it didn’t happen again.

Sorry, I’m missing where the previous shingles were wooden cedar. Nor do I think it matters since the shingles aren’t a structural feature. I’m not saying the code doesn’t apply, I don’t know, but I don’t see a practice of requiring a permit or inspection for resurfacing existing roofs with any material, including in PA.

ETA: I think you are assuming there were wooden shingles because of the gaps in the planking. Maybe there were at one time, but I have seem asphalt three tab shingles on plank roofs before, including my own house here that I just had redone with plywood sheathing added. The roof was redone not that long ago as being discussed now, and the asphalt shingles first laid then, or at some earlier time.

This is the real take-away from this story.

The outcome was certainly predictable, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say he deserved what happened.

I think he got what he paid for. Which in the world of home repair contracting is a better deal than most. If the OP could provide the price and square footage of the roof we could tell if he’s been ripped off based on what work was actually done.

The OP also mentioned gaps of 3/4 inch between planks. That seems absurdly wide, I haven’t seen tons of these roofs but usually the gap just represents the shrinkage in the planks after construction, something like 1/4" would be wide. I assume the boards are laid over purlins about every 4 feet or so, gaps like that would seem to allow too much flexing in the whole roof structure.

I know what you meant, but I couldn’t help thinking that wax poodle roofing would really be something to see!

i didn’t get the feel his parents were trying to cheap out on anything. they were recommended to install decking, they agreed and thought they’d paid for it and thought it was being installed.

whether or not the price was reflective of the decking being a part of the job remains to be seen, but they didn’t intentionally try to cheap out on anything. (my thoughts are, the price did include decking but the contract didn’t have it itemized on there so he didn’t get it. we don’t know this, but I’d bet on it.)

what he is guilty of is not being there when the work was performed. that would’ve kept all of this from happening (provided of course he paid some attention to the reroofing process).

The 3/4" gap is the clue … and I’ve nailed plenty of shingles down on this kind of decking … if the nail misses, just move up and inch or two … and it’s substandard … but the customer insists … that’s why they make 3" roofing nails, to get through four layers of shingles …