To be fair, I think that Americans are just as bad, if not worse, about expecting people in other countries to speak English than anyone is about wanting someone speaking Spanish in the US.
I hope one of our resident consitutional scholars pops in and clears things up here, but until then, I think I may be able to help. The tavern owner has been found in violation of the Ohio Civil Rights Act, which is interpreted and applied by the Ohio Civil Rights Commission (and probably at some level, the Ohio Courts). Bottom line: some court or agency of the State of Ohio will have the final word on whether the tavern owner violated the Ohio law. That doesn’t end things though because, via the Fourteenth Amendment, the First Amendment would apply to this Ohio law, which would make the Ohio courts ruling open to US Supreme Court reveiw. This brings us to our commercial speech issue. I fail to see how this is commercial speech for the very reason in mhendo’s post, it serve little to no practical commmercial purpose – maybe you could say it’s advertising, but it looks to me more like a political statement. Again, I’m no expert on First Amendment law, I read *Times v. Sullivan * once or twice six years ago.
that post seemed awfully haughty and I appolgize, I was going after the comments “ever heard of the Civil Rights Act” and such. The federal CRA’s are not at issue here because no one has alleged he violated any provision of those statutes. I think the real issue is the constitutionality of an Ohio ruling limiting this type of speech. Maybe I’m wrong.
Also, just as a personal reaction I think this is stupid. I would prefer if all the racist/xenophobe douchebags in the country would do something so notorious so I’d know to avoid them.
One more time: why is it racist to expect people to speak English? I really truly do not understand.
Personally, I never thought about it. I thought businesses stopped posting signs like “whites only” or “No Irish Need Apply” or whatever because it’s dumb to piss off potential customers. I mean, black people’s money is green too, right? Ditto for gay people, Asian people, short people, etc.
Yeah, I know government services aren’t allowed to discriminate but I didn’t realize that private businesses were legally prohibited from it as well.
So now I know. I’m still curious to hear the specifics of how exactly it applies to this sign.
I’d be truly surprised if anyone speaking Spanish (or anything other than English) has ever wandered into this bar in Mt Auburn. It’s an old, not exactly upscale part of Cincinnati, just north and slightly east of downtown. Up until recently, at least, there weren’t a lot of Spanish speaking folks around there, and I doubt that there are many now. There’s about a 99% chance that this is just some bigot making what he considers a joke. I’d also say there’s a 99% chance that this will in no way change him, for the better, regardless of what the state tries to do. I’d say it would have been a lot better off if locals had just organized a boycott. It’s near on impossible to legislate intelligence.
- Shibb, who used to live the next neighborhood over from there.
I worked in a hardware store when I was in high school, and if you didn’t speak English we weren’t going to be able to do anything for you.
We didn’t need a stupid sign.
Which of these options is it permissible for a business owner to put a sign saying:
[list=A]
[li]“English and Spanish Are Spoken Here: You May Order in English or Spanish” [/li]
[li]“English and Spanish Are Spoken Here: You May Order in English or Spanish, But No Other Languages” [/li]
[li]“English Is Spoken Here: You May Order in English But No Other Language” [/li][/list]
Who said it was racist?
I’ve read this thread three times and I haven’t seen a single post which claims the sign is racist. They say it’s discriminatory but discrimantory != “racist.”
Obviously the sign is offensive in a compeltely gratuitous and intentional way. It’s intended to be a dig at immigants (who aren’t likely to be white) and it’s a part of a pattern this place has of hanging right wing, retard slogans around the establishment. They have a right to do that to a certain extent but in the case of the latest sign, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that a random person walking into the bar would think that “Speak English for service” expressed a genuine policy that non-English speakers would not be served. What else are they supposed to think? It has the appearance of discrimination if nothing else. I don’t know if it violates the law but these kind of establishments have to be very careful about even giving the impression that they will not provide service to a given demographic. The defense that they don’t really mean it when they say (essentially) “speak English or fuck off” (it’s just a joke, ha ha ha :rolleyes: ) doesn’t strike me as particularly valid.
I think whenever you post the word “only” you have a problem.
Maybe it should say “You can order in whatever language you choose but the person who takes your order only speaks English, and therefore you probably won’t get what you want.” But I guess that’s too long for a sign.
There may not have been any accusations that the SIGN was racist but several people said the person who put up the sign was a bigot, a redneck, etc. So what is it about the sign that makes him a bigot?
You know, it is possible to buy things without having a language in common with the shop-keeper. I’ve done it as few times in foreign countries: by taking things off the shelves, or pointing to them, you can communicate adequately without language. So, if a guy from Mexico went into this tavern, pointed at something, and said “Por favor,” would there be a failure in communication?
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. (Am. Heritage 4th Ed.) (Emphases mine).
I think you’re bein very disigenuous. Do you honestly think this sign serves a utlitarian function relating to the tavern owner’s day to day task of pouring beer? Is he inundated daily by requests in Mandarin, Swahili and Aramaic for a tallboy of PBR? I doubt it.
It certainly seems as though the tavern owner’s intent is to not only make a statement regarding his refusal to conduct commerce with non-english speakers (no exceptions, no accomodations) but also to make the greater point “You’re in America. Speak English (you fuzzy little foreigner),” thus clearly demonstrating his intollerance for those who differ.
This guy might not be a bigot at heart, but his actions certainly seem bigotted.
I was incorrect. The Pleasure Inn is not in Mt. Auburn, it’s in Mason.
Mason, Ohio has about 22,000 people. It’s roughly 95% white, 2% Asian and less than 1% Hispanic or Latino. It’s not California, in the sense of diversity or hispanic population. Maybe the sign is not racist, biggotted, whatever, but then exactly what purpose does it serve? It’s not as if people coming and speaking other languages and expecting to be served is a problem for this old coot.
Well, Party Store compared it to a “No Niggers” sign. Guin called it “discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.” Those seem like charges of racism to me.
On a side note, how do bars get away with promotions like “Ladies get in free,” while men have to pay a cover. Is that not discrimination based on sex? Any thoughts?
To you his actions seem bigotted - but that doesn’t necessarilly make it so. You can draw your lines where you wish - but don’t expect everyone else to adopt your superior and enlightened world view. Rational people should be able to come to agreement on one point: All members of society - even those they personally deem to hold irrational beliefs - should be protected from overzealous government agencies. There were no “actions” here - only speech. Slippery slope arguments aside, if commercial speech like: “For Service Speak English” shouldn’t be tolerated - and in fact punished - what about a shop owner who posts:[ul][li]Staff Only Speak English[]Language, Borders & Culture[]David Duke For Senate[]Jane Fonda Urinal Targets[]Unless you’re Born Again, you can’t get into the Kingdom of God (In a Jewish neighborhood, no less)[/ul]All of which I’ve personally seen with my own two eyes - And though I don’t agree with them, the thought that a proprietor could receive punitive fines and sensitivity training for espousing those opinions troubles me alot more than any of the above sentiments.[/li]
Ullum could have avoid the trouble he’s in if he used a little more common sense. All he needed to do was put his slogans put onto T-shirts and display them as merchandise in his front window - or just put a price sticker on his sign.
Fixed title at request of OP.
Read posts 22 and 23 and I’ll think you’ll find that I agree with you about the sign and the commision’s ruling. In 22, I was suggesting that perhaps the ruling infringed on Ullum’s first amendment rights and called on any more knowledgable party to comment. In 23, I said the ruling was stupid.
As for the bigot part, not only should “Rational people . . . be able to come to agreement on [the ] point [that] All members of society - even those they personally deem to hold irrational beliefs - should be protected from overzealous government agencies,” they should also be able to agree on a word’s meaning. I provided what I argue is a widely accepted definition of the word bigot and demonstrated how Ulum’s conduct easily qualifies as bigotted. This was done so in response to kayT’s question. My observation had nothing to do with being superior or enlightened, it had to do with being able to read and display comprehension by showing that Ulum’s conduct is indeed bigoted ( . . .but the ad hominem was a nice touch you brought to the table. I know this is the Pit, but gratutious shit like that just makes you a douchebag, too).
How difficult exactly would it be for this jackhole to have his staff learn the word “cerveza”?
Yes it is, and there have been successful lawsuits in Madison to bar the promotion.
How difficult is it for someone living in the US to learn ‘beer’? I managed it before I was 10.
Again, I think the guy is a total asshole. Of COURSE the sign was there to get props from the echo chamber. If you are not able to say ‘beer please’ you certainly aren’t going to be able to read that sign.
However, the US is an english speaking nation. When I moved here my folks stopped speaking spanish. If I spoke spanish I got a wack for it. We didn’t expect folks here to bend to our language needs…we bent to theirs. I don’t see it as discrimination for a store owner (you know, he OWNS the place?) to put up a sign saying that if you want service speak english. I think its a fucking stupid thing to do…but you know, he should be free to be a fucking stupid asshole if he likes on this. Now…if he put up a sign saying ‘For service, be a white American’…THEN I’d take exception to it. Because that would be completely exclusive. But as long as he’s willing to serve anyone who speaks english (in an english speaking country for gods sake), I don’t see the harm. Fuck him AND his sign, and the horse he rode in on…
-XT