"A former Navy crew mate of Sen. John Kerry yesterday disputed charges that Kerry lied about his war record and said it’s time to “put a veteran’s veteran in the White House.”
Jim Wasser, who served for six weeks with Kerry on a Navy swift boat in Vietnam in late 1968 and early 1969, said Kerry never made a bad command decision and that a campaign by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth challenging Kerry’s military service is “rotten.” …
"…Steve Gardner, the one Kerry crew mate who is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said he and Wasser came out of Vietnam with the same negative opinion of Kerry — and that Wasser changed his view after meeting with the candidate.
“We both agreed that John Kerry had made a complete mess of everything,” said Gardner, an Ohio native. “Now he works for the John Kerry campaign, and you’ll have to draw your own conclusions.”
Wasser said he initially was angry when Kerry protested against the war but later came to agree with him. Wasser said he is an unpaid volunteer for Kerry and Gardner, whom he called “far right-wing,” is lying.
“Even though that saddens me, it will not change my view of Steve Gardner as my Vietnam brother,” Wasser said…"
You’re the expert on SwiftVet and Freeper stuff, Scylla. Any mention of this fellow, Wasser? Anything at all from the unbiased, unprejudiced, straight-from-the-shoulder Freepers?
You know, for a second there I thought you me. Apparently no such volume of memoirs exists. Then I noticed at the bottom of your cite the Mr. Wouk is a member of VVAW. I wondered if perhaps he had an axe to grind. So I checked google. I note that Gioi publishers of Hanoi have recently published a tome on the war with sections from the memoirs of GIAP regarding Dien Bien PHu.
Further checking on Gardner lead us to Snopes, which quotes Gardner as criticizing Kerry for tactical decisions, with no mention of lying, etc.
Just for the sake of clarity, Scylla, would you be so kind as to post the Gardner quotes you find so damaging? And this time include the links? There’s a good fellow…
“…Nor is this the book in which Gen. Giap supposedly stated that groups such at the Vietnam Veterans Against the War gave the North the resolve to carry on…”
Quoted from a review in precisely the same Amazon link. You don’t do a lot in the way of follow up, do you?
From your other link:
“…I would like to thank them,” the 93-year-old veteran said on Friday of those Americans who opposed the war…”
A bit short of what you claim, seems to me. He expresses gratitude, yes, but you said that he said that otherwise they would have surrendered. But he didn’t, now did he, buckaroo?
I’m familiar with the article. I’ve seen it more than once, and more than once in this thread. Gardner can only attest to incidents he witnessed which would be those that occured on PCF- 44.
Elucidator:
I’ve seen Wasser mentioned on the Swiftvets cite discussion forums as a dissenting opinion.
Well, there is the ad called Gunner on the Swiftvets cite, and in the discusssion forums there are transcripts of radio interviews.
You can look for it and find it yourself if you care to. I can neither prove nor corroborate his claims or statements. Look for them and decide for yourself. Their veracity isn’t really an issue for me. He says one thing. Kerry says another. Gardner’s claims against Kerry are, in my opinion, unproven. Without proof they are simply hearsay.
My point in bringing up Gardner at all is solely to demonstrate that the “None of these guys served on Kerry’s boat” rebuttal is simply a load of bullshit. Gardner served under Kerry on the 44 boat for about 3 months.
Just as an intersting aside concerning Swiftboats and bullets though. If you examine Kerry’s Wintersoldier testimony you’ll see that he characterizes Swiftboats as being unarmered and subject to being holed by small arms fire.
I know this was an issue for you in a previous thread, so I thought you might be interested. For the record though the AK fires a round roughly equivalent to a .30 round. What this means from a basic ballistics standpoint is that the quarter inch aluminum that makes up the hull of a swiftboat is for all intents and purposes a piece of tissue paper against such a round.
The issue is not at what range such a round can put a hole in a boat. The issue is one of accuracy. The AK-47 was notoriously innacurate. For all intents and purposes a AK can put a hole in a swiftboat at whatever range you can hit it.
No, but it’s kind of odd that Wouk didn’t find that since it took me all of two minutes. I don’t think that Wouk can reasonably say that such a book doesn’t exist when there’s one for sale on Amazon (not that I’m gonna buy it to look for the quote)
Nor do I think Wouk can impeach Ollie’s source credibly without noting that Giap has made similar claims as to what Ollie is claiming he said.
I have no idea whether North’s claim is accurate. Wouk’s failure to find it is hardly compelling evidence to the contrary. His failure to find the material I cited calls into question is credibility as does his association with VVAW (if you claim Swiftvets suck as a source, you can brook no argument with my claim that VVAW suck as a source.)
Wrong year, wrong title, quote cannot be found, only something obvious Giap said this year… months AFTER Ollie said that Giap said that! By golly he is clairvoyant!
Well, good to now that things said TODAY overtake things that they said then, no?
Of course, what Kerry said EARLY THIS YEAR, regarding his testimony, is irrelevant.
On preview: but ignoring that Gardner said on several occations, that he was not present during the incidents that gave Kerry all 3 medals, is the right thing here?
Sure, I can decide for myself: Gardner is a stinky liar.
I’m starting to develop symptoms of Scyllacosis. Its like trying to grab a greased catfish in a barrel of lard…
You tell me that Gardner’s veracity isn’t an issue with you, which I take to mean you don’t really know, nor much care, if he’s telling the truth. The crucial point to you appears to be to challenge critics who charge that none of the men who served on Kerry’s boat are part of the SwiftyVets. Gardner was on Kerry’s boat. OK. But so what? I mean, how much can you make of his being on Kerry’s boat if you don’t care that he’s telling the truth in the first place?
Upon preview:
Well, then, why did you bring it up? Being a big proponent of due diligence, and all.
Beats me. It doesn’t seem that Wouk bothered to ask Ollie what book he got the quote for, and doesn’t seem that Wouk made much of an effort to divine whether such a quote existed, or whether there was a likely book for it. So, in the absence of evidence one way or the other I’m not willing to argue whether the quote exists or not.
In all sincerity Gigo you actually need to be informed of the events before you can make such pronouncements. I looked at this one very carefully. Only a selective presentation of events could lead you to believe you to believe that these statements make Gardner a liar.
Kerry received medals for three different purple hearts (as well as a silver star.)
Those incidents occured on three seperate boats. The first was during Kerry’s stay at Cam Ran Bay (I think that’s how you spell it.) Kerry was on a Boston whaler type vessel and still in training before taking command of a Swiftboat.
The second I believe was on the 44 boat (which Gardner was present for.) The third was during the Rasmussen incident on the 94 boat. Gardner was not present for the that incident as he served with Kerry on the 44 boat.
Gardner says he was not present during the incidents that gave Kerry all three medals. This is the literal and plain truth. He was only present for the second one on PCF-44.
Where’s the contradiction? How does this prove Gardner a liar. He is speaking the plain truth. He was not present for all three. He was present only for the second.
Insult me in the pit, don’t waste my time here with this.
It can’t be proven, so why should I waste my time on it?
It’s interesting. Kerry’s rebuttal is the Swiftvets didn’t serve on his boats under his command. This is a falsehood.
We’ve just caught Kerry in a falsehood. We don’t know what happened in the boat, but we know that Kerry is lying when he says that none of the Swiftvets served under his command.
Earlier you made mention about not trusting sources that lie.
And somehow when someone says “not present in all”, I would think they are saying something different of what you are trying to say here, if I were to take your word, it is clear to me that he is contradicting himself in the recent shows.
You neglected to include the part where Kerry says that none of the Swiftys served on his boat. You kind of have to do that, if you’re going to say he was lying. We discussed this before, remember? About including cites and links and stuff. I can sort of understand your reluctance, hasn’t been working out all that well for you, has it now?
And please be sure to note: it must be Kerry saying that none of the Swiftys served on his boat. Not me, not Shayna, Queen of the Jungle, and damn sure not Ollie North. Failing that, I’m sure you’ll understand if we give this claim all the attention it deserves.
(I’m starting to lose track here…have you made any claim of fact on the last page or so that has actually proven to be verifiable?)
Had to comment on this: Of course, the proponents to this medal conspiracy of Kerry, are the ones that have the burden to prove that Kerry lied about his medals. On the whole, I see Kerry as more reliable than the flip flopper swifters; because, even after the whole huffing and puffing, there remains the fact that the record supports Kerry and not the swifters.
I don’t think so, Brutus, he seems to say he wasn’t present on all the occasions when Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia, but he might have been present on one of the occasions when Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia.
You’d have to ask Scylla, he doesn’t not understand these things better than I don’t.
Thank you, thank you. Go Me! (But I have to admit I feel kindof dirty quoting that filthy anti-Kerry site. Though as obviously biased as it is towards the Swifties, certainly it ought to be an acceptable source for our friend Scylla, no?)
Well, if I may wax avuncular without being taken as condescending…don’t entirely lose touch with that “kinda dirty” feeling. Anybody who hasn’t awoken of a morning and said to themselves “Gawd, I am such a slut!” is missing out.
(But I have to admit I feel kindof dirty quoting that filthy anti-Kerry site. Though as obviously biased as it is towards the Swifties, certainly it ought to be an acceptable source for our friend Scylla, no?)