New verbal garbage: "European American"

Clearly, we have different understandings of terms that are causing miscommunication. When I use the term “race,” I do so only out of convenience. There are no actual “races” - there is one human race. But we have a convention, at least here in the U.S., of using the term to refer to the major divisions of ethnic origin that were once referred to as “Caucasian,” “Negroid,” and “Mongoloid.” None of these terms is actually valid (although the first is still in common usage, at least in the States). The other shorthand way of referring to these groups has traditionally been by color: “white,” “black,” “yellow.” This is in spite of the fact that (1) not all members of each group are necessarily of the “corresponding” color, (2) it leaves out many people-groups that don’t fit any of those classifications very well, and (3) it just leads to more confusion, frustration, arguments, etc. Incidentally, in the U.S. the term black is still in limited usage, but for political reasons often is discarded in favor of “African-American,” which in itself is inaccurate. In addition, the term yellow was long ago replaced by Oriental, and has again been replaced by Asian. Again - more confusion - not every people group that originated on the Asian continent has been agreed to belong to the same major division of ethnic groups.

But, again - I use shorthand for convenience that I know most Americans (oh please, let’s not get into a semantic debate on my use of that term) will understand when I say “race” or “bi-racial” or “multi-racial.” If you don’t understand them, I will tell you what my parents told me when I asked them for word definitions: “go look it up.” I doubt that I’m using the terms in an unconventional manner.

As to being neither multi-racial nor white but still European - again this is more understandable in American common usage than to someone outside the U.S. Backlash about the changing of ethnic terms for what were once “Negroids” and “Mongoloids” has led many white Americans to refer to themselves (often tongue-in-cheek) as “European-American.” It’s every bit as inaccurate in many cases as “African-American” or “Asian-American,” but at least it’s as consistent. If I tell you that I’m “European-American” (or short it to “European”), I’m not claiming to reside in or be a citizen of Europe. I’m using a shorthand that tells others that the ethnic origin of all of my ancestors is the European continent; specifically, I could refer to myself as “Nordic,” if I chose to be more accurate.

When you refer to someone who is not multi-racial or bi-racial or white but is a European, do you mean that they live in Europe, that they were born in Europe (even first-generation), that they have citizenship in a European country - or do you mean that the ethnic origin of all of their ancestors is traceable to people-groups that are geographically identified with a region of Europe? And if the last, then I’m again racking my brain for a region of Europe that produced a non-white ethnic group. Because now you’re specifically throwing out the “Caucasian” designation in favor of the “European” one, I can’t include the Semitic peoples, the Indians, etc. I’ll do some research to see if there’s a group I’m forgetting.

I’m not trying to have a bad attitude, but I must say that I sense that you were offended by my earlier posts - or that you were trying to insult me. I hope I’m wrong on both counts.

So, you can’t call yourself “white”, even if that’s an apt description, if your family is traceable back through Beijing or Tokyo… then you are, perhaps, Asian?

But someone from Europe is not European, but “White”? Even if perhaps they look like Thierry Henry, Cisse or Zidaine? I don’t think I’m following you.

Well, considering that Habanero means “a guy from Havana”…

See my above post concerning the American conventions of referring to race. Yes, it’s no longer acceptable to refer to any race by color except “white.” This is what led to the letter to which Habanero referred in the first place. We can’t call people “Black” or “Yellow” or “Red” or “Brown” because it’s offensive to them. But we can’t call “White” people anything but “White” because it’s pretentious of them to request otherwise. :rolleyes:

I don’t make this shit up - I just am telling you what the American conventions are. I didn’t realize that people outside of the U.S. were unaware of them.

It also refers to a very hot member of the chili family. How do I know what led him to pick that user name?

And I’m pretty sure that Havana, Cuba was heavily colonized by the Spanish a long time ago. If Habanero is Cuban and white, he is statistically most likely to be of European descent.

That would be a “Yes.”

Europe and Asia are only different continents because the Greeks gave separate names to the landmasses on which they lived separated by the Aegean and Black Seas. Eurasia makes a lot more sense in terms of contiguous landmass and tectonics. Heck, lots of Europeans, while pretending that the Ural Mountains make some sort of clear divide among continents, group the Americas as a single continent (hence the number of Olympic rings).

Why is this a problem?

If you’re an American you’re an American. I don’t give two shits what color you are. Most other people don’t care either. It’s patently obvious that if you have brown skin or “Asian” eyes that your family originally didn’t come from here, there’s no need to make a big deal about it.

The problem is one of our own making. When we give different names to people we make it easier to separate them, whether it’s for the purposes of bigotry or for the purposes of giving them an advantage to make up for prior injustices, both of which just drive the wedge deeper. Proof: a while back I posted that I could claim Hispanic on applications to take advantage of AA policies. I can legally do that, but I look white (probably because I am). The general consensus was that I was trying to game the system. Why? Because I didn’t look the part. The label got in the way and caused division. How stupid and petty can we be?

Why can’t we just say American and be done with it?

I agree, Airman Doors, I really do. On the other hand, I hope that doesn’t mean that we stop celebrating our heritage, because we really would miss out on a lot of rich traditions if we did.

Huge snip… yes, we all know that race is a difficult term to define. Saying ‘this is the way we do it in America’ isn’t a great starting point if you want to discuss non-American matters.

That makes sense, as far as you go. But it tells us nothing about you, only about your ancestory.

Why should it matter? Or, why should I be able to decide which labels are attached to other people? And you certainly seem to be unaware of the deomgraphic reality of Europe, which involves huge amounts of immigration, and also of movement between countries. Speaking of which, should an orthodox Greek be counted alongside a catholic Irish, purely because they’re “European”? How about Roma populations? I’d suggest they’d count as a ‘non-white’ group, in just about every way except for skin colour.

Are you having a bad day, or are you being this disagreeable to me for some other reason?

Why is this a “non-American” matter? The situation obviously began in an American classroom (see the OP).

My ethnic origin does tell you something about me. But what does knowing anything about me have to do with whether someone calls me “white” or “European-American.” (If they know me, they don’t call me either - they use my name.)

You presume to know what I am and am not aware of. In fact, I am aware of these things, but they don’t address anthropological groupings of origin so much, at least not at the level of what we mean when we use shorthand terms like “African” and “Asian” and “European.”

You didn’t answer my question about your meaning of the term “European,” even though I clarified mine. This leads me to conclude that you’re more interested in being argumentative than in having a productive discussion. I don’t believe I care to waste any more effort answering your questions until you show me a less belligerent attitude.

You’re right…
except I was born in India, and really choose not to lose that part. I like being Indian, even if other Indians annoy me.

And for some reason it annoys me when people bring out the old “Well, Asians *can *be caucasian, too”. I suppose our roots are, but it’s a silly and useless fact when none of us are treated white. Just my own personal annoyance.

If we decide to go by “European American” for every “white” guy in America, then we might as well call everyone in North America “-insert ancestry here- American” given that America is such a young country in comparison to others. But at what point to we drop the ancestry and just call ourselves American?

I understand from professors and various readings that “Native Americans” refer to themselves as “Indian,” yet it’s not politically correct so most people will not refer to them as “Indians.” Do “African Americans” get offended at “Black?”

It’s a touchy subject, and it varies greatly depending on the person with whom you are speaking. Personally, you can call me white, (warning to the easily offended here) cracker, guera (spanish word for white person), or any other term slapped onto a person with light skin. Just don’t call me European American.

That doesn’t go to say that the same applies for all people with the same skin tone as me.

Cool, my wife’s a European American, too!

She’s not very white, though. :smiley:

Habanero is a she.

What about those immigrants who choose not to take American citizenship, because they’d rather not lose their own and can’t take dual citizenship (a situation that applies to many British, Irish and French ex-pats).
They’re not “American” anything.

Using a blanket term to apply to a group of people is pretty much pointless anyway.

My mother was born in Zimbabwe to a German/Irish/? (probably Cape Malay) mother and a German father who was of mixed Ashkenazi/Sephardi heritage. Until she was 25 she had a German passport, at which point she became a naturalised British citizen.

According to her place of birth, she’s African.
According to her first passport, she’s German, and her second, she’s British.
According to her ethnic heritage she’s mixed race with Jewish ancestry.

I don’t think “European” would really work for her as a descriptor (white isn’t particularly great either, but there you go).

It’s ironic that some want to refer to caucasian-Americans as European-Americans, when a simple look at the map can tell you that the namesake, the Caucasus, is NOT in Europe. Because I said so. Look at the friggin map!!! Europe ends in Poland! Culturally AND racially! (East Slavs have a distinctly different look from central slavs and Germans.)

I don’t care what the dictionary definition is, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it, unless we go to “Eurasia.”

Not to pick on you, Anaamika, but what you said reminded me of a friend of mine who was born in America, going to state college in America for really affordable tuition because she was American, but still insisted that she was Mexican, despite the fact that she wasn’t. That attitude actually irritates me more than most of this other racial/political nonsense.

Do you really feel you aren’t treated white? Under what circumstances do you notice that? Do you feel like whites consistently get better treatment across the board than you? Can you give us a few scenarios where everyone treats you one way, but treats whites differently?

I ask this because I just don’t see it. If you had met me, for example, I would not have treated you differently than anyone else, ever, based on my perception of your racial and national background. And I’m quite willing to bet that at least a simple majority of the people you deal with are the same way and have never done anything to discriminate against you.

A simple majority still leaves a lot of people to discriminate against one.
And people will no matter what someone calls himself. But in the US the mix is so great that it’s very common to ask about someone’s ancestry. My last name is clearly Irish or Scottish so people ask. I tell them I’m Irish.
These things seem situational to me. If you’re sending someone up to see Ed on the second floor you’ll say " He’s the tall black guy that sits in the corner cubicle". If your looking at some wood carvings on Ed’s desk and he tells you they’re heirlooms from his great grandfather you might ask him where he’s from and he’ll say " Nigeria" for example. I don’t see much utility in using “European American” instead of “white guy” or “African American” instead of “Black guy” but if someone’s really sensitive about it I guess it’s up to you to decide if you want to guide yourself by his or her sensibilities.

I remember when my kids were young, I was reading Harry Potter to them. In one passage, Rowling describes Dean Thomas as black. My son, full of kindergarten-induced racial sensitivity, tells me, “She should have said African-American,” demonstrating a kinder, gentler cultural imperialism. I corrected him, and told him never to tell his grandfather that.

GorillaMan. European-American isn’t a particularly useful, precise or valid ethnic descriptor. It certainly is not a equivalent of “African-American,” which is only the latest label that describes a specific group of blacks: the descendants of (West) African slaves in North America.

Airman Doors. We’re not all 'just Americans" because American freedoms include the right to be as ethnically separate as you like.

Habanero. See above. Also, I no know no one under 70 who is offended by “black.”

For everyone else: black (and red, yellow, brown) and white are broad racial descriptors. African-American is a narrow ethnic descriptor for a specific group of blacks, just like *Cajun, Amish * and Boer are ethnic descriptions of specific whites. Other blacks in America may be from Africa, but they aren’t African-Americans beyond the literal the sense of the term and are usually the first to tell you so.

That said, identity is fluid. Some second generation African blacks who grow up in America do indeed identify with, and consider themselves, African-American. Barack Obama seems to. But this is unusual.