This, more or less. My episode was a mugging (so robbery, not theft), and I actualy wandered the town for about half an hour afterwards, because I wanted to fight them, being high on adrenaline at the time. Then I cooled down, thought better of it, and went home. I ended up not reporting the incident, partly because this was in a third world country where the prisons were really terrible, and I didn’t think that the loss of my phone was worth it. But also because it was dark, I couldn’t really recognize them, so there was no chance the police would ever be able to help.
Common law of England. Which is the basis of most of the statutes in the US and commonwealth of nations.
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And this is where “active consent” laws kick in. Without them, an insensitive person might just assume that it’s okay since the other party didn’t actively object. That insensitive person might not notice the other party pulling away, etc. But active consent puts a heavy burden on the insensitive person to have a positive reason to believe consent was actively given.
My guess is that “active consent” laws have zero impact on people who are good at reading other people and who prefer not to sexually assault other people. Which is probably a large fraction of the population, when you think about it.
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Active or affirmative consent standard raises its own issues. We will be relieved of the need to show that the perpetrator did not have belief or a reasonable belief in consent, but now there will be arguements over whether the victims acts or omissions showed “affirmative” consent. If you think victim blaming is bad now…
Something that doesn’t seem to get recognized very often is that some of these sexual crimes are very easy to perpetrate, physically.
It’s hard to mug someone impulsively or easily. There is a big barrier there in terms of screwing up the courage to attack, having a weapon, overcoming the natural disinclination to/conditioning against hurting another person, etc. There’s no such thing as “oops I mugged you.”
Whereas, someone could easily just reach out and touch someone’s ass at any time. Yes, there is a barrier there. There is social conditioning against it. But it’s an order of magnitude or two lower than mugging someone.
Moreover, the action itself is contextual. I rode the nightmare commuter trains of Japan for over two years. Many, many times I’ve had my crotch in someone’s ass. I would fear being falsely accused of doing something, so I’d typically keep my hands up on my chest, mummy-style. (By the way, one time I was 95% sure a chick on the train was feeling my ass with her hand, so I have been most likely a “victim” too, although it wasn’t traumatizing and in fact I kindof liked it, though that doesn’t make it right.) Anyhow, in this context, I was doing nothing wrong. In most other contexts, having my crotch in someone’s ass would be considered sexual assault (and would be a much higher barrier to cross, obviously, than just reaching out and touching someone’s ass).
So one day I just reach out and touch someone’s butt, and I am a horrible sex criminal worthy of prosecution to the limit? Even if it was just a one-time impulse. This kind of thing scares me.
Now if a guy is doing that all the time, yeah, he should be punished. If it’s truly a one-time thing, maybe a slap across the face and a “fresh!” per the old-time movies is punishment and negative reinforcement enough.
I guess what I want to emphasize is that, in the case of many sex crimes, context changes a totally forgivable thing (accidentally brushing up against someone) into a very serious crime (purposely brushing up against someone). This is not the case with respect to almost any other type of crime. They require some very concrete, antisocial action that could not occur accidentally.
Sure. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
okay. But while I think it is sexual assault to grab a stranger’s ass, I don’t think it’s a very serious form of assault. A minor crime, not a major one, unless there are aggravating circumstances (the victim is trapped and unable to resist, etc.)
Whereas I don’t think you can accidentally rape someone. That general requires that clothing be removed, for instance. I suppose if consent is withdrawn at the very last moment it could be an accident, maybe. But honestly, that seems like it should be a lesser form of rape, too.
I agree with what you say.
We’ve gone from these things being under-recognized, under-reported, and under-prosecuted to a kind of witch hunt fervor about sexual crimes. It’s another one of those things that makes life in America in 2014 feel rather unpleasant.
You’re suggesting that those with alzheimer’s aren’t people anymore, with actual needs and desires.
You can accidentally rape someone, because part of what constitutes it as rape is the mental state of the victim, which you are not always privy to.
(This is not a statement of law, rather I’m elaborating on the moral concept of rape.)
So be careful if you would prefer not to rape people!
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
I assume you can control your impulses enough to keep yourself from jumping off bridges and throwing yourself at passing trains. If you can do that, you can avoid grabbing people in the ass. If your impulse control is so bad that you are constantly taunted by the urge to assault people, you need isolation and professional help.
Its also very easy to steal impulsively - maybe not mug someone, but steal.
Shoplifters do it all the time.
Or you see someone’s car left open and their purse sitting there.
Your coworker has left a $10 bill sitting out on his desk
Some of this is petty theft - like grabbing someone’s ass is minor sexual assault. They won’t lock you up in the big house for $10 off someone’s desk or grabbing someone’s ass. Either may never get reported. However, get caught often enough shoplifting or grabbing purses, and you’ve built up a pattern that the law starts to take notice of. I think a similar pattern would be appropriate for men who sexually assault. The first time you get taken down to the station and slapped on the hand. Someone reminds you that sexually assaulting women is a crime. You are asked if you would like a referral to mental health care (which you scoff at). The tenth time you are seeing some jail time/community service/fines.
All of this makes sense and I think answers even sven’s comment.
I think you misread his post. He was talking about times when a hand might accidentally touch someone else’s private parts, such as on an extremely crowded train. That’s real. And it’s an accident, not a crime.
I do group dancing. (Contra, square, folk) and it’s not all that rare for someone’s hand to brush against my boob. Once a guy pretty much punched me in the breast. (He was reaching for my hands, fur an energetic flourish, and missed) those aren’t assault. Those are all accidents, and no big deal.
It wasn’t a total misreading. But there’s another issue. I had pretty bad OCD as a kid, and when “Officer Friendly” came to our school and told us about how we’d be cuffed and taken to the station if we stole a tiny item from the school, I was effin’ terrified.
The notion of “if I do this one little thing my life will be ****ed” is terrifying to a lot of people. I have fine impulse control, but the OCD that lives on in me in diminished form still finds it scary.
Because I feel like it? I should need an excuse? What other activity should I abstain from to avoid risk? Interacting with any stranger because who knows what could happen? Or be very wary of family members because they’re the most likely to hurt you (murder, child rape, battery, etc…)? And if they don’t it’s other people you know (friends, neighbours, coworkers, etc…) All things considered, perfect strangers are probably safer.
Does your argument apply to date rape too ? “You shouldn’t have had casual sex”?
Except that I was specifically asking about your view of moral fact, not law.
And what **Dangerosa **describes would be part of the whole social/cultural transform that is necessary, a changing of the POV so it’s recognized that yes, it may be “petty” degree and *individuals * affected may feel it’s “not worth the hassle” and decline to follow up, but it’s still wrong and if you make a habit of it, or do it to someone who cares to follow up, society *will *have an interest to stop you before you take it further.
Yes – when properly applied, affirmative consent is already an easy rule to observe for a large part of the population. And for many others it merely requires reconsidering your position on the use of vague “signals” (both sending them and presuming you are reading them correctly) as a method of communication(*).
ISTM it’s the tying it up to the parallel issue of the adoption of draconian ZT Og Help You If You Are Even Accused measures that makes it look worse than it is.
(* HOWEVER: Like someone else said, lying still with your head turned and crying quietly wishing it’s over is not vague, it’s pretty damn obviously a clear NO I DON’T WANT THIS signal. What sort of sociopath would disregard that? And is it really feared that a large proportion of males are that sociopathic?)
clairobscur: of course date rape is rape, period. The affirmative consent rule would necessarily apply in full, even more so since there would be no excuse to not get explicti consent. It is one thing to do things because you want to and don’t need an excuse, and another for someone to take advantage of that to hurt you. But part of the issue with when is it that consent is or is not clear is that of there having developed a confusion of acceptance of casual sex, with expectation or entitlement to casual sex. Someone who’d rather not engage in a casual hookup should not feel in any more need for an excuse than someone who would. We already make it a point to promote that even in marriages and ongoing relationships you should NOT assume “default=Yes”, this is extending the invalidity of that string to the entirety of the spectrum.
Not really an accusation, more surprise. Because I’d also never call because someone would think it was an overreaction…because you’re in a bar with drunk guys, so of *course *that could happen.
These days, I’d probably tell the bouncer, though, depending on the kind of bar it was. The bouncer might do more than cops would, since it would be a he said/she said report anyway. (Telling the bouncer is a step forward for me. In my young and cute days, I would give the guy the Christopher Walken thousand-yard glare and tell him that if he did that again, he’d lose his f’ing hand.)