Newish eBay/PayPal Rule -- made me be done with both of them (longish)

The BBQ Pit
1

Last week I sold a used Blu-Ray player on eBay that went for around $150. The buyer paid me the funds on PayPal but I noticed that his payment was on hold pending shipment of the item. I didn’t have a problem with this. I went through PayPal, printed up their USPS shipping label and mailed the item. But, the payment was still on hold. I was dubious as to why. After reading the conditions of the releasing of funds, I read (paraphrasing): Sellers with less than 100 feedback ratings who sell electronic items over $100 are subject to payment holds. Holds are released when either the item is delivered or the buyer gives the seller positive feedback. This pissed me off a bit. I sent the item, there is a tracking number, it’s a done deal as far as I’m concerned. But anyway, fine, we all deal with strange arbitrary rules in life and/or pay for others’ transgressions through stupid rules. I figured this was one of them.

Last night I checked my PayPal transactions again. I saw that the item WAS DELIVERED Monday at 1:17PM, yet my payment was still on hold. I called eBay to find out why. They said it was a PayPal issue, their rules. I called PayPal; they said it was due to eBay’s rules. And they’re the same company. Um, OK. But they each said that “the” rule was that after the item is confirmed to be delivered, I have to wait another 3 BUSINESS DAYS for the payment to be released from hold. However, if the buyer left me positive feedback it’d be released immediately. I also found out that if I didn’t use their USPS label printing system and the buyer didn’t leave me positive feedback, I would have had wait 21 BUSINESS DAYS to get my payment. Seriously?

In any case, re: my situation. What the fuck? The item’s delivered. Everyone in the fucking world knows it’s delivered. The buyer has it. He’s likely using the fucking thing and you’re not giving me my money yet? Why the hell not? Of course, once you ask these sorts of questions, no one has reasonable answers. Luckily, with some harassment and an explanation of the situation, the buyer left me positive feedback and my funds were released an hour later (NOT immediate as they say).

I explained to them that I’ve had my eBay account since 99 and my PayPal account isn’t much newer. Why would they impose such a rule on long time members? Yeah, I get it, in some scenarios this works. For example, a guy who joined last month with 20 feedbacks decides he’s going to scam some people, puts up ads for high end cameras and walks away with people’s money. But this clearly wasn’t the case.

I assured them that my evenly-spaced auctions over the past 10 years weren’t a ploy so I could finally scam someone by selling them a used Blu-Ray player.

Well, I closed my eBay account. As soon as PayPal finishes transferring my funds to my bank account (why THIS fucking takes 3-5 BUSINESS DAYS, I’ll never fucking know), I’m closing that one too.

2

I think we’d all be stupid if we thought decisions like this weren’t made by MBAs looking to make a few days’ extra float while chalking it up to “preserving the user experience.” Somebody somewhere at eBay is now showing off a spreadsheet and going “Look! Our new user policies generated $X million in incremental interest income, all while protecting our users from scammers. Hooray for us!” Meanwhile, the revenue is flowing out the back door in the form of people who won’t stand for this crapola and will close their accounts. Curiously, the spreadsheet won’t account for this.

3

You know they (I forget which) actually said that these rules were in place to “enhance buyer confidence.” I replied that what they’re actually doing is diminishing eBay confidence as a whole, because not only will they lose a seller, but they’ve lost a buyer as well. Of course the response was laced with indifference.

4

Bingo. The cumulative interest earned by holding every transaction’s funds for a few days here and a few days there is millions of dollars.

5

Hmm. I’ll admit I don’t always leave feedback; if I felt it was a fair but not dance-in-the-street good price and the shipping and handling was fair and got there in a reasonable but not lightning quick manner- basically a completely ordinary and unspectacular transaction- I often don’t even think of leaving feedback. Neither do I tend to notice somebody’s ranking unless it’s bad. I hope now that I haven’t held anybody up from getting payment.

6

I think THespos has it right. Paypal has miserable customer service. I sold some items a few years back, one of those items being a perfectly working Xbox game. The buyer tried to pull some crap with me whereby he claimed that the item I shipped was broken (it wasn’t) and I should give him a refund sight unseen. I told him that I would give him a refund if he shipped the item back to me. He complained to Paypal. Their resolution? That the buyer ship the item back before I gave him a refund, which was exactly what I proposed. Unfortunately, Paypal termed their resolution an action against me, which gave the buyer a reason to leave me negative feedback. He never shipped it, I said “screw it” and didn’t refund him anything, and I never sold anything on ebay again.

7

Seriously?

UPS will deliver to leasing offices, neighbors, will leave it on the side of your house, etc. Additionally, it’s not unreasonable to conceive of someone taking receipt of a package and not actually opening it the nanosecond after he closes the door to his house. In short, just because UPS notes the item as delivered, it doesn’t translate to “the risk of fraud has now been reduced to an acceptable level”

Read that part again. The point on holding your money isn’t to “ensure delivery”; it’s to make sure that you didn’t send them a box of rocks. It means diddly squat if a dummy was delivered - that’s not what’s being protected here

It’s 3 days, guy. Seems like you’re upset because you didn’t read the rules thoroughly before entering into business. Guess the “Make your living by setting up your own shop on E-bay and working just 20 minutes a day!” book didn’t cover that part?

8

I would never sell on eBay because you have to except PayPal. PayPal fucks people over regularly. You’re lucky your not in the situation where you can’t apply for the funds until after 3 months has passed.

9

Are you not aware that any retailer from which you buy an item on-line will charge your credit card as soon as the item is shipped, regardless if any tracking numbers are recorded and sent? Neither the buyer or me are responsible for USPS, UPS or FedEx, that’s why we pay for shipping insurance. That is also why retailers charge your credit card as soon as the item is shipped. They’ve done their part and they don’t have responsibility for shipping carriers either.

And what is the difference, in regards to the buyer’s recourse, between buying from a shady retailer and a shady eBay seller? Not much.

And besides all this, these are new PayPal rules. I would have never thought they would arbitrarily hold money.

Do you read the rules before every transaction on every web site?

10

I think Ebay/PayPal’s hold policy is more slanted towards protecting the Buyer than frustrating the Seller.

What if, for the sake of arguement, you were in the Buyers shoe’s, though?

You send a bunch of money to a guy who has a low record of transactions —an unknown who really doesn’t have a reputation to protect— and there’s the possibility that your hard-earned bread might end up getting you a big 'ol box of nothing. You wait and wait; you email repeatedly, and still nada.

Would you really want your complaints to PayPal to be answered with, “Sorry, pal. The Seller transfered all his funds, closed his account and we don’t know where he is. If it’s any comfort, he did it to about 50 other schmucks, too.” PayPal isn’t really straight forward enough to come right out and tell you, “You’re fucked.” Back when PayPal was fairly new this was a common enough occurance.

Sure, Baby/PayPal have some maddening, ridiculous policies, but what are you 'gonna do? They’re the only real game in town. I guess there’s the other auction sites —the ones that see about 10% of the traffic that Ebay sees— or selling stuff on Craigslist, or at the local flea market…

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That’ll teach 'em.

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Closing accounts is a good thing regardless if it doesn’t bankrupt them. You at least are not bound by a business agreement with them in the future.

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Assuming you have shipped conforming goods. Which apparently e-bay is concerned about with those with insufficient market reputation.

Yes, not much. Which is why e-bay put this policy in - to improve buyers’ recourse.

So which one is it? Are e-bay sellers hapless people who just occasionally sell stuff online, or they businesses? If they’re hapless people who just occasionally sell stuff online, then no, I wouldn’t expect them to read the fine print. But then again, I wouldn’t expect them to care about having money held for 3 days from a credit-card processor.

If they’re businesses (and most e-bay sellers have some illusions of commercial grandeur) then what I, as a buyer, do in a transaction is irrelevant. Commerce expects sophisticated sellers and heavily tilts rules of regulation and compliance against them for the sake of unsophisticated buyers.

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In my case, I’ve sold about 10 and bought 40 things in 10 years on eBay. I hardly fit the mold for an eBay scammer.

Also, you keep harping on this 3 day deal. Let me tell you why I’m bothered by it and it’s really simple. ** It’s not their money to hold at this point.**

Also keep in mind, that I got the best case scenario. If I didn’t print my shipping label through PayPal and the buyer didn’t leave me feedback, PayPal would’ve held my money for three weeks, which is ridiculous. Frankly, what they’ve done is actually take any power away from sellers and give it all to the buyer. If the buyer chooses to either procrastinate (not leave feedback) or just flat out lie by saying the item was broken, what recourse does the seller have? The pendulum has swung fully to the other side.

People in my shoes (51 transactions in 10 years, without ever receiving a negative feedback) shouldn’t be held to this rule. If they want to impose such a rule, then the formula should include how long the sellers’ account has been active.

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It’s not about teaching them anything. It’s about distancing myself from bad situations where it’s probable that I’ll get fucked some day.

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That’s really your rant?

You sound like you expect them to know who you are, or care. There is risk inherent in the system. They’ve never and will never see you face to face, and they deal with millions of transactions per year. They can’t give you that same familiarity that your small-town local business who knows you by name might be willing to extend to you. And when you think about it, the level of blind trust eBay users place in each other is really pretty high. It’s amazing that the service is even able to exist (and thrive) at all.

So I assume you got your money, but you’re all pouty because it wasn’t instantaneous? Are you that hard up for cash that you couldn’t make your rent without the money from the sale of a used Blu-Ray player? If so, you have much bigger problems to worry about.

I’ve seen some weak-ass rants on this board but this one is definitely in the top 5.

17

I’ve seen this from the other end. About 10 years ago my son (about 11 at the time) saved all his allowance/lawn mowing money and ordered some new game (one of the play stations) via ebay the second it came out. He found a seller with a price “too good to be true” and sure enough - he sent his money and that was that. He never got the item. The seller took the money, closed up shop and disappeared. He did what he could to recover his money through ebay and paypal, but he was screwed. If they had the buyer protections in place then that they do now - he could have gotten his money back. Better yet, that crook would not have even listed it because he couldn’t get paid for an item he had no intention of sending.
My son also was sent fake Magic cards back in the day, and again, had no way of getting his money back.
I know the hold on the money is a total pain in the ass for the seller. But it does make it safer to buy on that site.

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**
yes it is. by agreeing to accept their time-saving offer to process credit cards for you, you gave them the right to hold the money in escrow in accordance with their stated policies.
**

To you. Not to me - a buyer who may have had his new Wii shipped to him via parcel post and not delivered for 10 days.

well you don’t need recourse for the procrastination - you’re going to get your money. as for lying and saying the item was broken, well that’s not a risk born from this new credit card escrow plan.

Again, that’s your opinion. Ebay decided that perhaps “length of time spent on ebay” is not sufficient indicia of trustworthiness, especially with such a low sales volume. So you can’t be a scammer because since you sold 50 packages of hello kitty stickers over a decade you necessarily will be honest in selling an expensive piece of electronic equipment? Please.

19

Jeez, okay, then, you disagree with everything I wrote. I’m probably not going to change your mind on anything, you’re unlikely to change mine, so I guess that’s that. Moving right along…

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I’m sorry that happened to your son.