By 1995 some Americans were starting to wake up to the abuses of the Federal Government. Waco, Ruby Ridge, the mistrust of Clinton, etc. Feelings were of course not revolutionary, but folks were starting to scrutinize all levels of government more carefully. Free people should examine it’s leaders, and we were starting to do that again. The sheep mentality was starting to wear away.
Then you showed up Tim. Your timing couldn’t have been worse. You see sir, “The People” were already starting to wake up, albeit slowly, to government abuses. We didn’t need you. What you did was make the governement a victim. A victim to be pittied. In another time and place you may have been called patriot. But thanks to you the word patriot is now a dirty word. I never thought I’d see that happen in America. Those of us who distrust the Feds and make statements against it now will be likened to you, a terrorist murderer. How dare you take it upon yourself to strike when there wasn’t any justification for it. Sadly there may be a day when we have to take up arms against a domestic tyranny. But that day is nowhere near. And if it were to happened it would be a collective effort of a majority of citizens, not a lone maniac who thinks he alone will decide who lives and who dies. Those of us who are working to change our governemnt back to the Republic our forefathers envisioned have been set back at least 20 years, probably longer. Like real patriots we are using peaceful, legal means to do it. Thanks to you our task and goal seems impossible. More & more restrictions on our precious freedom seems inevitable thanks soley to criminals like you.
I’d like to say may God have mercy on your soul. But who am I to tell God what to do? Rot in Hell!
The others on the compound must be so proud. You can actually use english, in coherent sentences! And before you get all up in arms(perhaps literally), understand that I am a Libertarian, and agree with what you are talking about to a large extent. The paraniod “Government out to get us” crap is different from Mr. McVeigh only in degree, however. Govt isn’t out to get us, we’re cedeing our rights to them in short sighted persuit of unattainable, nebulous goals.
Not far wrong. Actually: We’re cedeing our rights to a collection of bureaucratic special interests that have a vested interest in being able to control the majority of the population. Why we’re doing that, is the pursuit of unattainable, nebulous goals, aided by a defunct education system and a news media far more interested in ratings (money) than in actually informing the public. Our (as a culture) disinterest is the final nail in the coffin of our liberties.
Evil isn’t just hate, it’s also sloth. All it takes to lose everything our ancestors fought for, is for us to sit on our butts. Time to get educated, and get active, politically speaking. First target: Hate groups. Take 'em out with education and publicity. We don’t need any new laws, we just need to turn a spotlight on them, and watch 'em scuttle for cover. The Media won’t do a complete job on the hate groups unless we demand it. Once that’s done, we can work toward regaining some acountability in Gov’t.
My opinion differs from both of yours only in that I don’t see the goals of the majority of the population as nebulous and unattainable; I see those goals as being “I want it all, I want it right now, and I don’t want to have to work for it.”
(Bravo, Pepper. Very succinct.)
Tranquilis - interesting take. Maybe it would be more accurate for me to say that people don’t even know what their goals are (because that would involve thinking about it and making a thoughtful, informed decision), but think they want whatever the current politician is hawking as the trend du jour.
Revtim, I can’t say what pepperlandgirl intended, but I read her statement as a condemnation of wartime mentalities, not in support of the idea that killing innocents in war is okay.
Yeah, if we hit it by accident because the CIA got their maps wrong again. Innocent people die in every war, that doesn’t make the cause you’re fighting for a bad one. What does make your cause a bad one is how you go about it. Had McVeigh hit the IRS when the building was empty, people probably would have stood up and cheered (until they found out because of his actions, they weren’t going to be getting their refund). Don’t you think that when we bombed Germany, the Nazi’s played up the fact that innocent people were killed by our actions? We did the same thing when the Nazi’s bombed England.
McVeigh was a total fuckwad, who deserves to rot in hell (if there be such a place), not because he killed 168 people (I’m not trying to belittle the horror that his victims must still be going through. They suffered unimaginable horrors at the hands of a lunatic, and this country owes them big time.), but because he resorted to violence when there were other means at his disposal to get his message across.
Bravo, pkbites! McVeigh and others did a great disservice to the legitimate anti-government movement, and was justly punished for his crimes. I don’t think any true lover of liberty can support violent uprising so long as a political solution is available, and I would think there are very few people who see the situation as so fargone that a political solution is NOT possible at this time.
I just hope that someday the butchers of Waco and Ruby Ridge (among many other less publicized but just as heart-wrenching) will also have to face some sort of judgment as well (with the recent ruling to allow prosecution of Lon Horiuchi, perhaps there can be some movement in that direction)
:rolleyes:
You asked “when is it patriotic to kill innocent people?” Do you think that everybody we go to war with is guilty of something? Or can they be condemned simply because they fight for Germany, or North Korea, or England?
It’s patriotic when you kill people in war. Guilty or innocent.
Remember the object of war is “not to die for your country, it’s to get the other guy to die for his.”
So just how far dead-set against your postition do the voters have to be before it’s okay to start blowing people up? 'Cause let me assure you, much of what the militia types want is never, ever going to happen in this country because the rest of us realize it’s fucking nuts.
This is a democracy. There is no excuse whatsoever for anything remotely similar to what Tim McVeigh did in Oklahoma City.
I never stated that it was all right to murder innocents. Any attack against a civilian, whether with fertilizer in a truck in Oklahoma or burning down a compound in Texas, is cowardly and is never morally sanctionable. The (hopefully) rather far-fetched theoretical situation where open revolution would be justifiable is when every political solution has been exhausted and the US has slid far down the road to tyranny and there’s no other choice. I truly hope that day never comes.
And if that day ever does come and somebody intentionally targets civilians in an act of terror, I will stand up and cheer when the secret police descend from their black helicopters and slowly torture him to death on the spot.
There can be no excuse for what McVeigh did, not even if every paranoid prophecy of the extreme right were to become true.
Overall, I agree with the gist of the OP. McVeigh’s actions were totally unjustified, and has turned the American people’s attention away from the underlying message of the militia movements, which is basically: “Wake up folks. It’s your government, too”.
Now all they see is a bunch of cranks in camo fatigues, which is a superficial impression, at best, and leading to dangerous stereotypes that further marginalize people disaffected with what they perceive to be a government that’s become anything from “unresponsive” through “unaccountable” to outright “out-of-control”.
In an actual declared war (and armed rebellion against the federal government could only be defined as such in the event of a sucessfull rebellion), McVeigh’s target could be construed as legitimate, inasmuch as it was part of the government’s infrastructure, and its destruction would handicap government operations for that region.
Civillian employees of a government are legitimate, if somewhat strategically and morally dubious targets.
But McVeigh’s “declared war” was the action of a lunatic Don Quixote tilting at the wrong windmill, at the wrong time and place.
