I resent the implication that I base my beliefs on disagreeing with ANYBODY. I generally agree with Stoid but happen not to on this point. I request that you apologize for that atatement.
Many of us find the concept of creating human embryos specifically for research to be creepy. The compromise he put forth is satisfactory to me and, apparently, quite a few other people.
Presidential fiat, without benefit of the advice of others, is dictatorship.
And I have none at all. Not even the tiniest twinge of regret. Not a single cell of me flinches at the idea. In fact, I celebrate it. I think it is brilliant and amazing that we have the capability.
We differ in this, obviously.
The part where we don’t fund sten cell reasearch that involves anything other than the six (teen? ty?) strains.
I think it’s a chickenshit decision. I think it is ridiculous and makes no sense. I understand that some people have a problem with it, for the same reasons they have a problem with abortion. But abortion is legal, and I think we all agree that there is no “greater good” that comes from that. Given that the United States Supreme Court has basically determined that there is no such thing as a “person” until the thing is born, I think our laws should be consistent in reflecting that fact, which means we treat embryonic stem cells no differently than we treat fetuses aborted from a woman’s body. Blastocysts are not people. Putting the brakes on the research by witholding federal funding is inconsistent with existing US law and it is a HURTFUL decision which HELPS no one. It is pure politics and I don’t have any respect for it.
If it had been a real president who had made the decision, I would have said something like “Shit, _____ panders again.” If it had been a real president I like that had made it, I would have said something like “Awwww, man, this is bullshit! How can you let them get to you like this?” In other words, it is in fact the decision itself I have a problem with. But because it was a decision made by a man I despise more with every passing day and week, a man I respect less (if that’s possible, and I find that it is) and a man whom I do not believe has any right whatsoever to be making these kinds of decisions in the first place, I admit I expressed my disdain for the decision with extra force, choosing “Fuck you” over the other options.
Glad you think so. The fact that I despise Bush has not changed since November. I am the same Stoid I was before the election and since the election. At certain times, over certain issues, I am sure I will be the same Stoid I was during the election. And that stoid was not UNfriendly, UNthoughtful, and I can’t speak for whether I provoked thought or not. Considerate? Dunno whether I am or not, don’t see how it really applies. I try to be. So the only thing I might be accused of really, and I don’t deny it, is lacking in balance. But I never claimed to be balanced…I’m not a media outlet, after all, I’m a person with opinions.
But the bottom line, Scylla, is that I’m always Stoid. And the error I think so many have made about me is deciding who I am based on a very narrow slice of time and topic.
And ** Bio-brat **, I don’t know if you’re right, but I appreciate your saying so. 
stoid
What did you expect him to do? I’m sure you would have been pretty pleased if he had gone right ahead pulled the gun out, put it in his mouth and pulled the trigger six or seven times, but don’t you think it was a little disengenuous to expect it? We’re talking about a president that won the office in one of the most fractured and raucous elections in history, one in which he lost in the popular vote count.
Had he supported “full” funding of stem cell research, it’s not as if he was going to attract droves of Democrats who were awed by his personal courage in choosing the “right” path. All he would have done was piss off a large segment of his core supporters. The research is going to happen, no matter the level of federal funding. It simply may not happen as fast as it might have otherwise.
I realize you think the man is the span of Satan or a tleast his cabana boy, but no matter what you think of him, it’s moronic to expect him to write off the chances for a second term because of stem cell research that might not pay off for ten or fifteen years. Even if he had “seen the light”, I seriously doubt you would have wanted to pay the piper when the time came for him to pay back his core supporters for splitting with them over this issue. I think we’d all like to believe that the President, any President, would put the welfare of the country over his own personal political advancements (ha), but why, oh why would you expect him to do it now?
Brilliant. You revile him for making the same decision that anyone else in his position would make and blame it on the fact that you already despise him. Does wonders for your capability for thoughtful, intelligent and rational analysis of events in the world. If you’re unable to see why George W. Bush is unwilling to simply piss away the support of people who helped him get to the White House on an issue which, while important, is not going to make or break the nation’s well being, you’re even dumber than I thought. Work with me here. Although you may not like it, political realities are just that, realities. There’s a vast difference between “pandering” and turning to the core of supporters that helped you get through a surprisingly difficult primary and a hugely complicated general election and flipping them the bird, leaving them standing there with their mouths open as the words “Fuck you, I’m outta here,” hang wafting in the breeze.
It must be much easier to have such an uncompromising and uncomplicated view on the world. The way you carry on makes me think that you’re continually surprised and disappointed that George W. Bush doesn’t deliver on the Liberal mandate that got him into the White House.
Ankh…I think you used the word “expect” at least 4 times in that post. Where did I ever indicate that I expected ANYTHING from him, much less expecting him to make what I consider the right decision?
I’ll tell ya: I didn’t.
I think it’s a shitty decision, and I would think it a shitty decision if anyone made it, as i said. I can’t believe how, in both this and the GD thread on the topic, everyone is praising this decision for it’s * political expediency *. Since when did that become praiseworthy? Have our standarads sunk so low?
I’m glad he’s just as self-serving as most politicians, because if he’d had the courage of his (alleged) convictions, he would have shuit down all funding. But that doesn’t mean I have to be * happy * about the decision he * did * make. Again, what’s with the lowered expectations around here? Why am I wrong for wanting to see him or anyone else in his position stand up and say “No, scientifically and logically, there is no reason to block this funding. While we recognize the discomfort some people have with it, we can’t base our decisions on that when there is nothing scientific to support them. Especially when what is on the table is cures for painful, fatal, and draining diseases. Sorry.”
Frankly I think it’s sad that so many people here seem to be so comfortable, even supportive of the idea that he’s making his decisions based on wanting re-election. Sure it’s understandable…that’s doesn’t make it * admirable *.
Criminy.
stoid
Where has logic even entered this process? Your logic seems to be “I think this is fine and dandy, therefore that’s the way it should be.” There certainly is a logical reason to ease into stem cell research: a large segment of the population seems to be somewhat uncomfortable with it. It seems logical that in a represetative democracy, we should take that fact into account in how we handle the subject. I happen to think that stem cell research opens up incredible possibilities for future therapies, I’m very definitely for agressive federal funding. But I’m able to recognize that a lot of intelligent rational people have genuine fears about what it entails. I think they’re wrong, but by
…steamrolling them and forcing the funding down their throat, do we accomplish anything? I don’t think so. It merely stregthens their intransigence. As I said (in the previous-previous post), this is nto an all or nothing question. The research is going to continue whether the federal government opens the funding floodgates or not.
To me, it’s not a matter of political expediency, but of what is possible. I want stem cell research to go forward, as quickly as possible, I would have loved to hear that he had decided to fully support it. But politics is not science. If the only reason we had to refrain from certain types of research were scientific reservervations, we’d go out and find a couple of hundred pairs of twins and decide once and for all whether it’s nature or nurture.
If stem cell research funding had been completely shut down, I would have felt it was an over-reaction, “pandering” to the religiously conservative supporters that make up such a powerful segment of Bush’s power base. But that’s not what happened. The fears of those who oppose the basic research are being taken into consideration, at least from my perspective. As you said, “We recognize the discomfort some people have with it…” That’s what happened. Whether it’s a matter of political expediency or simply an illustration of the aphorism that “politics is the art of the possible,” doesn’t really matter to me personally.
I don’t understand your seeming inability to recognize that other people don’t have your purity of purpose or clarity of vision.
[sub]sorry for the broken posts, but it’s late and I’m not all that bright to start with[/sub]
Quote:
Presidential fiat, without benefit of the advice of others, is dictatorship.
I don’t disagree with that necessarily. But I’m sorry, hasn’t he been studying this and talking to “experts” for quite a while now.
Plus, If every decision this guy makes wasn’t based SOLELY on helping himself get re-elected in 3 1/2 years, it would be refreshing. Enjoy your stay George because you’re going to end up pissing off enough people on both sides and you will never get re-elected.
“Many of us find the concept of creating human embryos specifically for research to be creepy…”
I am sure you will say that no, it’s too creepy when they say, yo, D-Zone, we figured out what to do about your fast growing and almost invariably fatal cancer. We’re going to replace the defective oncogenes with some new ones which have been grown using human stem cells.
The same way that the D-Zones of this world say no to fertility drugs which do monstrous things like make the mother have seven children at once. “Oh, no, we can’t abort any of those children. They’re God’s children. It was meant to be.” If it was meant to be, you would have gotten pregnant by having conventional intercourse.
These people stand vociferously behind their gooey little ideas of rightness (oooo! That’s icky!), until they are going to fucking die, then it’s another tune altogether.
If they really felt that human life (which is not what we are talking about, not even embryos, but concepti, a mass of dividing cells), they would be in an uproar over the way the world’s most wretched are treated, many of them Christians, too. That’s right. I said it. Fuck the Pope and all the other self righteous slime who stand in the way of human needs being fulfilled. You know what’s really creepy? The fact that half the world can’t read.
“What did you expect him to do? I’m sure you would have been pretty pleased if he had gone right ahead pulled the gun out, put it in his mouth and pulled the trigger six or seven
times, but don’t you think it was a little disengenuous to expect it? We’re talking about a president that won the office in one of the most fractured and raucous elections in history, one in which he lost in the popular vote count.”
HE DIDN'T WIN.While the extreme majority of this board, for example, are rational and intelligent people, I would have to disagree that “a large segment of the population” is. A large segment of the population are ignorant, uneducated people that don’t even know what a “stem” call is, let alone what benifits it offers. They hear “fertilized egg” and think “baby”. A large percentage of the population don’t even know what logic and reasoning are, let alone how to employ it to do some general research on the subject before garnering an opinion.
I never bought the “its not natural” sentiment. Thousands of people fly in the air daily. That is not natural, perhaps we should ban it. By Jimminy, if God wanted us to fly, he would have given us wings. We shave, perhaps we should ban razors, if God didn’t want us to have facial hair, he wouldn’t have made it grow there. Bah!
I can see from both sides really, I am anti-abortion, but only because of strong feelings that sex should not be frivilous. That does not mean I try to force my feelings on others, it is just how I feel about it. I certainly don’t feel that they are “human”. Is it time we suggest to the scientifically unminded people that they take their own advice? Be more open-minded.
Doth mine eyes deceive me? They’re STILL chanting that little calming mantra? 
Om… om… om… he didn’t win… om… om…
Bush is the real president. Nice to know though that your prejudices aren’t limited to being against the military.
Oops. I forgot. Bush was in the military, so therefore, according to you, he probably was “taught not to think.”
I think we now see exactly who it is who has learned to not think.
Oh for crying out loud.
I wasn’t saying that the three of you posted the way you did because this was Stoid’s thread. What I was trying to say, is that in comparison to the the GD thread, there were more people who agreed with Bush’s decision in this thread than in the other.
Stoid is so demonized around here that I think often some of us who agree with her are reluctant to post in her threads because we don’t want to painted with the same “zealot” brush as she.
Thus, I apologize for that atatement (sic)
Ah, so you let your hatred of Dubya cloud your thinking. Wonderful. Yes, you don’t like it, but the fact that DUBYA made it makes it even worse. Jesus Christ on wheels, woman, if he HAD shut down all funding, you’d be bitching about that. I don’t like Dubya, but cheese whiz! For what it’s worth, I was surprised-I had expected him to cut all funding on it. I mean, he’s a conservative, what do you expect?
Have you no understanding of politics? Most of the time, you HAVE to play the middle road. There are too many fringe elements out there. And that just because YOU don’t have a problem with it doesn’t mean that NO ONE ELSE does, or that they are STUPID. Grrr…I swore to myself I would stop trying to argue with you…but I can’t help it. (And I’m looking forward to the self-righteous e-mails you like to send people-perhaps because you’re too chickenshit to get really nasty?) When you refuse to see things from another point of view-or understand WHY people think the way they do, you lose the ability to think rationally. Period. (waits for the oh…I guess you’d say that about the KKK/Hitler/Fundies etc etc…)
I don’t know where my feelings lay on this. I don’t know anything about stem cells and genetics and science in particular. That’s why I really don’t have an opinion on this right now.
But considering the controversy over the whole thing…
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: extremes are bad, mmkay?
Stoid demonizing? Yeah, I admit, Stoid always manages to push my buttons. I try not to, but she’s just so goddamn sanctimonious. And I HATE myself for getting this way, but oooooh…just this whole, “My opinions are superior and your’s are stupid” thing about the subject of stem cells…no matter what-completely denies her any credibility.
I don’t like myself when I get into it with her. But I think she brings a lot of it onto herself.
The purpose of the commission is not to look into it and help him make an opinion. He has already come to a decision. The purpose of the commission is to observe complaince and results and keep him him informed.
I think he came out saying that if the proof of benefit is strong enough then it may make sense to allow it. This commission will keep an eye on the research that is performed and help the president determine if the hopes of stem cell research are being realized and how that affects his decision.
Good lord, Monty, you are still steaming over a remark I made (and we hashed) * two years ago?!?!?! * Don’t hold grudges much, do ya? :rolleyes:
stoid
This was a baldly political decision, there seems little doubt. Pity Bush thought he had to wrap it in the clothing of a moral decision, fooling few. He could have done it with much less criticism, from either side, if he himself hadn’t made such a big deal about it - when was the last time a policy decision of this magnitude got a prime-time address from the occupant of the Oval Office? He didn’t have to do that - promoting the importance of a decision he didn’t have to make at all, or could have quietly delegated and pretended ignorance of, and that had no outcome available without negative consequences seems like political miscalculation. If he was trying to look like a decisive leader instead of a manipulated weaseler, I don’t think he achieved it.
Not that it really makes all that much difference, even in baldly political terms. Congress can override the restrictions, there are other sources of funding, and other countries where such research is going on without interference from the fundamentalists who continue to be a source of embarrassment to the rest of us.
A lot of things happen that way in the real world of politics, though. One has to be content with results, and sometimes ignore the process.
I’m gonna have to look up web cites after I get back from this afternoon’s funeral in order to pursue this much, but I just wanted to throw out there that the radio yesterday was filled with interesting bits about how essentially full of shit this decision is, because the cell lines that Bush was talking about are almost all useless, if in fact they even exist. There was quite a bit of question over that.
So what appears to be a compromise may in the end turn out to be just what it appears to be to me and some others: a bullshit copout made for exclusively political reasons.
I watched his sorry ass on 20/20 last night, and I have to say I was mortified, just mortified. “I like my job…serious people come to me, give me information and tell me “Decide”, and then I get to decide!” Oh goody!
He is an embarassment to this country in every move he makes.
stoid
Abso-fuckin’-lutely. Count me in that number. And many times it’s because she’s so inflexible and intolerant of opposing points of view that I’m reluctant to encourage her by my support. (BTW, hiya Stoid.)
However, in this case… SHE’S AS RIGHT AS RAIN.
The only wisdom in this latest decision by Mr. Bush was the base political soundness of trying to appear moderate and thoughtful. Otherwise, the decision was a cowardly and foolish one. Not only was this “compromise” scientifically illiterate, it was ethically cretinous. To deny federal funding for research conducted using freshly created stem cell lines for fear of “crossing a fundamental moral line” (by encouraging the destruction of human embryos), while continuing funding for research involving existing lines is the ethical equivalent of buying produce from farms run on slave labor, secure in the knowledge that you’ve prohibited the creation of any new slave farms.
Bush’s mini-Missouri Compromise serves to advance him further along the political tightrope he must negotiate to have a chance in the 2004 election. Unfortunately, unlike the original, it was not made in the context of any great public debate over fundamental human rights; rather, it was made in a context of widespread scientific ignorance and disinterest, and designed to dodge the ethical questions entirely. It does not serve the public interest.
I’m proud to join Stoid in saying a hearty “Fuck YOU!” to the president.