Nickelodeon special on gay parents: Would you let your kids watch?

***Originally posted by JerseyDiamond ***

I find this very contradictory. Sexuality is a part of love. Gay or straight, it’s about the pursuit of love. Homosexual relationship are, generally, founded on the love between two people, just as heterosexual relationships are, generally, based on the same love. You’re fond of saying sin=sin. In this case, love=love, no matter which gender(s) it’s pointed at.

No one said or implied that. One person or group having multiple qualities does not necessarily mean that the qualities are related.

Please be kidding.

What “to me” is there? Seems fair that the personal anecdotes about homosexuality is best left to the homosexuals.

And to go through all this without even watching the show, dismissing it as stupid, is a bit silly, no?

More stupidity from a fundie.

Please, explain to me what exactly is a “gay lifestyle.” I must say that I am at a loss to determine any tangible difference between my morals, and the way I live my life, and the morals and “lifestyles” of my straight friends. We’re all relatively conservative (though I lean libertarian), we’re all Christians, we’re all film geeks, we’re all clean cut average Americans. How, pray tell, does the gender of the people I would like to date make my life radically different from anyone I know?

The truth is it doesn’t.

There is no gay lifestyle. Gay people are appreciably no different at heart than straight people. The only people who talk about gays having a particular “lifestyle” are bigots who are trying to justify their mistreatment and derision of gays.

And in your case, you would use your child as your tool of bigotry, sending a spiteful message loud and clear how much you hate queers by saying their houses aren’t good enough for your little rugrat to be in. Sickening. Utterly sickening. But hey, your mythical sky pixie tells you to be a monster, so its not really your fault, now is it?

Kirk

Well, that amounts to not letting her play with my daughter! I don’t have sex toys lying casually about, you know.

Y’know, I couldn’t have put it better myself.

With all due respect? How would you know, being that you are not gay?

It’s been said a bunch of times already but why on earth do you think that someone would choose that? You risk alienating your family and friends. You risk being assaulted. You risk being faced with a lifetime of bigoted statements, sometimes from people you though you admired.

Not that I haven’t made some bad choices in my life, but this was not one of them. It was something that I desperately wanted to change about myself to no avail. Your logic has no basis in reality.

It’s not about having sex toys lying around the house QueenAl, it’s about my daughter seeing you and your girlfriend as husband and wife so to speak. Possibly being affectionate. This is something I don’t want her to see and think it is ok. Playing on the play ground or in the yard is different.

musicguy, Why would anyone want to chose to sin? People do it because they want to for self gratification, anger, or simply because they want to and they don’t care what anyone else thinks. How do I know being gay is not natural? Yes, I am going to say it. The Bible.
Reality. Reality is that you like guys, you don’t like girls (in that way), so because you like guys you choose to be with them. You would rather please yourself than say… God
Family and friends don’t agree with it (most of the time from what I hear) because something is not quite right about it. Not because they don’t understand.

Kirkland1244, it’s funny because all I have been hearing from you is stupidity too. I am happy that you think your so enlightened. You don’t know what I say to my daughter. So why don’t you stop assuming things. If my daughter was to turn out to be hateful towards you, it wouldn’t be because you gay.

Because whether you like it or not, God is the God of all. Even if you don’t accept Him.

Well guys, it’s been interesting. Sorry if this seems harsh, but I am picking up my pearls and leaving now.

 Bye for now.

No, it would be because of her mother.

No. You simply made a choice to believe in God. Your faith is your own personal choice and there’s no reason for you to expect the law to propagate its tennets. In fact, God doesn’t even exist so it’s stupid to base our laws on the demands of a fictional authority.

Jersey, if you are still reading this, could I have a word with you here? The linked thread is not in the pit, and I am interested in discussion rather than name calling.

FTR, I would say that the problem with making your religious beliefs the law of the land is that if your god exists it is his place, not yours, to judge me.

Because remember boys and girls, there’s nothing more evil than two people in love. Now go worship the mythical sky pixie of Fundianity and don’t forget to send a nice fat check to the SBC.

You assume gay people are gratified. Not all gay people are sexually active, if that’s what you mean. And some of them suffer greatly, because of “people” like you, for being honest about who God made them to be. Some of them die for honesty. I know, I know, honesty isn’t something you deal in. The Great Sky Pixie hates it.

And again, since you’re not gay, you’re in no place to speak.

The Bible is not a science book. Nor is it a history book. It is religious literature, with a great deal of moral and theological value, when read critically, and not from a retardedly literal point of view.

Bible worshippers are a cancer on the Body of Christ. Christianity got along just fine for 400 years without that inane book. Damn that Augustine for helping to assemble it. Sure it made it easy to fight off most heresies of the Middle Ages, but look at the evils it gave rise to in the 19th and 20th Centuries.

In other words, what is natural for straight males is not natural for gay males. What would you have us do? Live lies? Force ourselves back into the living hell that is life in the closet? Yes, I’m sure that is. Maybe you’d ship us away to one of those dangerous brainwashing cults run by Baptist groups that “re-orient” fags into nice, normal little troglodytes like yourself.

No, specifically because they don’t understand it. But you know what, they tend to come around. And I can’t speak for others here, but I actually have only had one bad reaction to my coming out and that was my fault: I never should have been friends with a Southern Baptist in the first place.

Thank you. To be called stupid by someone like you is a sign of great accomplishment.

I look forward to that day, about six years from now, when people like you will have to call me “Dr. Stupid.”

I am enlightened when it comes to the issue of what it means to be gay, whether being gay is a choice, and so on and so forth. Why? Because I am gay. That makes me the authority and you the spiteful little ninny who’s tilting at windmills she doesn’t understand and takes her spiteful, bigotted ignorance as holy inspiration.

No, it’ll be because her mother is fundamentalist troglodyte and perverted her daughter into the same, all in the name of the Great Sky Pixie.

I accept God, and look forward to watching him do horrible things to all the people like you, who spread evil and malice in his name.

In other words, the troll can’t win, so she’s calling us all swine and going away. Not only a bigot, but a coward as well.

But she’s busy. She’s got a child to raise to be a fuming beast just like herself, and it takes a long time to turn children, who are nominally good and often quite accepting, into little fundamentalist trolls.

Kirk

…and in a flourish of insults and circular logic, Jersey_Diamond disappears, until the next thread on homosexuality. When the cycle can repeat itself, yet again…

It is ever thus. Somebody asks a question about a gay issue, the debate evolves into a christianity vs. acceptance thread. The Christians state and restate their position, and try and make it look like they’re debating. The rest of us try and address their points logically, trying to show them where they’re using irrational and contradictory arguments to support their position, but they just restate their position. It goes on until the Christians quit the thread, claiming we’re not listening to them.

All the arguments in favor of treating gays like garbage boil down to “God says so” or “It’s icky.” Every single time. No rational reasons, no good arguments, no legal precedents, no logic, no thought. Just dogma and bigotry, with a garnish of “My god is better than your god.”

Every single thread I’ve seen on this issue ends up in that pattern. It’s amazingly consistent, and I’ve had some time to think about what it means.

First off, I think the reason the Christians quit first is that their lives and the safety of their loved ones isn’t at stake. This argument is pivotal to my fate, and to my family and to the man I love; it’s not one I quit easily. I’d like to believe that the reason the anti-gay faction quit is that they’re starting to see their position from a rational perspective, and it creates a cognitive dissonance that makes them uncomfortable. But they just keep coming back to threads on the same subject, with their positions still unchanged, so I’ve pretty much dismissed that theory.

Mostly, I’ve been wondering what good it does to argue this at all. It’s become obvious that these people haven’t reached their conclusions through logical means, so logic is pretty much useless. If someone is convinced that persecuting a faction of society is the compassionate, beatific thing to do, then they’re pretty much impervious to logic.

So, the question becomes, how can they believe this stuff? How have they been convinced that thousands of people are so evil they deserve to have discrimination against them written into law? And the only answer I can come up with is the irresistible attraction of superiority. If you’re at all insecure, finding someone to whom you can feel superior is a cheap and easy way to bolster your cockiness. You can’t be all bad; look at those horrible people over there. You’re much better than they are. The lure of this feeling of superiority is so strong that it seems the human mind can support any amount of circular logic, any number of dogmatic contradictions, any degree of hypocrisy, in order to maintain it.

The final question is, why continue to argue?

If they’re so entrenched in their beliefs that they’re invulnerable to rational discussion or even human compassion, why bother?

The answer is faith. Oddly enough, it is a faith that makes me wade back into this, time and again. Faith in the innate goodness of human beings. Faith that, while bigotry is learned, kindness and generosity are natural human qualities.

Even if the people in the thread can’t be swayed, there may be someone out there reading that hasn’t had their position carved in stone as of yet; they may have heard the lies about us, and not quite believed. They may be doubting that we are deserving of such hate.

So, I try and argue calmly while they tell me they wouldn’t let their children play with mine, that I’m an abomination, when they condemn my boyfriend and I to hell, when they call me swine. I argue knowing that the message that I’m trying to get through to them is worth it, that their very humanity may depend on their grasping the simple concept I’m trying to convey.

It’s not tough to understand.

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

I just want to point out what a beautiful job you people are doing of representing the idea of “Tolerance” here.

Absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, nice example of loving and being nice to everybody. People like you are the prime reason why the public at large thinks doctors are all arrogant assholes. Keep up the PR, jack. But don’t worry, I don’t think that about all doctors, just about you.

Wow, that’s clever too. I have a different theory: maybe it’s because you’ve shown yourself to be a hateful jerk, and hate breeds hate.

You’re a bunch of damn hypocrites. Somebody doesn’t believe what you say they should believe, and you turn to insults, name-calling, and outright hostility. Maybe you should listen to the good advice that people like to give to us Christians, and get a clue: You don’t win anybody over to your position by being an asshole when you’re giving your side.

And when you’re acting like this and people bail on the thread, lemme let you in on a little secret: It’s not because you won the debate with your dazzling logic and they couldn’t keep up. It’s because YOU’RE ACTING LIKE A JERK!

[Moderator Hat ON]

Guys, cool it. NOW. Stop throwing around terms like “asshole” and “jerk” and “beast” and “swine”, etc. BOTH sides, here. We have the Pit if you want to insult.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

Joe, if their great Sky Pixie were really real, he’d give them the power to overcome any arrogant jerkiness of us poor, deformed faggots. They quit because their arguments are ground in myth and bigotry, not fact. Their argument boils down to “Pastor Billy Joe Bob done told me God done said so” and that’s not any sort of valid argument. So they turn, they run, showing that they cannot defend their position. That is cowardly.

I’m not here to be loving and kind to everyone. There is nothing wrong with wishing harm on evil people. Do you not wish harm on Osama bin Laden? Since people like Jersey and her ilk routinely beat, harrass and sometimes kill people like me, I see no difference in the situations. If I had an army, I would use it just as Bush has used his, only my target would be the Southern Baptist Convention, not Al Qaida. A drunken Baptist with a baseball bat is more of a threat to me and people like me than any Muslim fanatic with an airplane.

This is a war. A war between good and evil, acceptance and religious-sponsored bigotry and hate. The bigots have been very good and keeping the death toll high on the side of light. But in the end they will pay for it. Society will spurn them, their children will abandon them, and they will live the twilight of their lives in a world where the bigotry they have championed for decades is as repudiated as the racism and anti-Semitism their grandpappies worked so hard to preserve. And then with any luck, they will die and God will reward them for the torment they have wrought upon millions of innocent gay folks as only he can.

And just for the record, I won’t be a medical doctor. And what you, a stranger on the Internet who is defending religious anti-gay bigots, think of me rates somehwere just below what the average seagull thinks of me on my “degree of caring about what people think of me” scale.

Except for the fact that I don’t hate anyone, including you. And I don’t think I have been a jerk. I’ve been pretty polite except for the one quote that you posted from me. That was a heat of the moment comment that I am less than proud of, but only for the way I phrased it. The fact is, she (JerseyDiamond) made a lot of assumptions in her last post. She is judging me and teaching her child that judging people is ok because the bible say they are right. I thought God was supposed to do the judging.

You do understand that your post is no less hypocritical, right? You have also turned to insults, name-calling, and outright hostility.

This debate is getting out of hand though. I would ask that we all take some deep breaths and try to get a bit more rational. I would like it to continue but will ask the mods to close it if it stays this hostile. From the sound of Gaudere, I might not have to ask.

Yes, I’m fully aware. Even Christians get pissed at jerky behavior. JD isn’t the only one making assumptions. I read this entire thread, and I’ve seen everybody – even you – putting words in her mouth, consistently ignoring what she says in favor of belittling what you WANT her to have said.

She said (essentially) “I try to be nice to everybody equally, and I teach my daughter to do the same. That doesn’t mean I approve of their values.”

You said that she’s teaching her daughter to be hateful to people and God says it’s ok.

That is complete BS. she didn’t say anything even remotely resembling that. And you’re not the only one. Everybody in here has been dog-piling on WV_Woman and Jerseydiamond WITH THE SAME BS ARGUMENT OVER AND OVER! No matter how many times it gets repeated, not one single christian in this thread said it’s ok to be nasty or cruel to gay people, or to anybody! I haven’t seen anybody taking the CON side of this debate say anything like that. All they’ve said is that they disapprove of the behavior, and don’t want TV teaching morals to their children.

But with a few notable exceptions (thanks gobear, and a couple others), the repetetive tendency has been to say "oh, you think it’s a sin? How dare you teach your children to hate me, you bigoted, horrible, beastly, hateful christians!

Get over yourselves, ok? You guys are the thought gestapo, telling people how to think. And the fact that you’re gay and feel persecuted doesn’t make it right for you to tell me how I should think or raise my kids.

To not let her daughter play at the house of a friend because the friends parents are gay is nasty and cruel, and she claimed thats exactly what she would do. That is vulgar and disgusting. It’s no different than not letting your kids play at someone’s house because their mom is white and their dad is black. Or because they’re Jewish.

She may not come right out and declare her evident hate, but it seethes beneath her words, as it does beneath the words of all like her. They claim to love us. But their love is deadly. They spread lies and falsehoods that make gay teens self-loathing and violently depressed, leading to the epidimic suicide rate amongst pre-college aged teens.

Religious groups infested with people like her help fund “re-orientation” ministries which push the “its a choice” lie, and cause inconceivable harm to the psyche of gays gullible and stupid enough to let some Jeezus pusher brainwash them.

The end result of the “love” of people like Jersey or VW, the end goal of the groups and hate pushed by their religious movements, is genocide: push teen queers to kill themselves, mentally rape and mutilate adult gays in “reorientation” clinics, and the fags that won’t tow the line? That’s what baseball bats are for, to complete the Mythical Sky Pixie’s Holy Work.

WV roundabout accused gays of being molested, and thus only thinking we’re gay because we’re mentally traumatized. Jersey had the audacity to tell me and the other gays here that we chose to be gay. I know for a fact that I did not choose to be gay, and anyone who tells me that I did is a lying, evil bigot, and will be treated like such.

Kirk

poor kirkland. You’re so persecuted. And mind-reader extrordanaire, too!

:rolleyes:

You’re right though. There’s enough hate on this thread to fill a bus. But you’re confused on where the source is.

I just have to chime in and say that I don’t see “To me, being gay is a choice” as being a meaningful statement coming from a non-gay person. It would be like me saying, “To me, being Christian is like believing in Santa Claus.” It’s suspiciously close to WV_Woman’s, “Don’t bother me with facts–I’ve already made up my mind.”

And if someone told me that I’m good enough to have dinner and drinks with, but their kids weren’t allowed in my house, that would be about the last dinner I ever had with them.

She can say that she is nice to everyone equally and teaches her daughter to do the same but if this thread is any example, she does not try to be nice to everone equally. I would imagine she lets her kids go to everyones house except gay people. She considers gay people to be sinners without even knowing if they have had sex and that is the sinful part, right?

And I never said that God thinks its ok. I would highly doubt God thinks that people judging other people is ok. If he exists, I’m sure he can take care of things just fine without a bunch of “helpers”.

Discrimination is hateful. When these Traditional Family Values types tell people that this show is teaching sodomy to our youth, am I supposed to sit back and go “well, they mean well”. This show had nothing at all to do with sex and didn’t even say that people should be nice to gay people. All the message said was that kids of gay parents get picked on a lot and they shouldn’t. And 50,000 “christians” did not want that message on tv. Who’s the “thought police”? If more Christians held the views of people like dreamer, there would be no animosity.