Nickelodeon special on gay parents: Would you let your kids watch?

Great Debates
221

You are missing my point. WV_Woman said that morality is not decided on by society but by God and told people to check Leviticus and get back to her. And I did, I pointed out that morality can be and has been dictated by society despite biblical rules and regulations. I also gave two examples of situations where the law that Chistianity was supposedly exempt from was used to persecute individuals and groups of people, just as she was doing. Sadly, she never addressed my point.

You can not claim to be exempt from the law and then use it to point out the sinfulness of people who you do not agree with and whose feelings you do not understand.

222

mods, any chance you could fix the coding in my last post? Sorry for the inconvenience.

223

Kirkland, you’re not helping.

MrVisible, maybe that should be a thread of its own.

As far as Jersey’s last post - when I posted thanking her for answering my question, I said I didn’t want to touch the rest of her arguements. This was part of the reason why; I knew she and I disagreed fundamentally on the subject in question.

Interestingly, I also almost used a swine analogy.

I almost said that the two of us trying to change each other’s minds was like the proverbial porcine vocal instructor. However, as I realized this could be construed as an insult, I chose not to use that analogy.

224

Would you feel the same way if the neighbors were militant terrorists? Or bank robbers? After all, the bank robbers don’t believe they’re doing anything wrong, it’s just a living. And the terrorists, well, their god tells them to blow up shopping malls and kill as many of the infidels as they can, so they believe they’re morally right too.

But I don’t approve of their morals and values, no matter how convinced they are in their own minds that nothing is wrong. Since I don’t want my child learning their values or believing that they are ok, I wouldn’t let my child hang out in a gay household. No hate present at all, only concern for what my child is learning. When children are old enough to have learned what the parent has to teach them, they are free to be friends with whomever they choose. Example - if I had a 15 year old son or daughter who had a gay friend, fine. They’re old enough to make more-or-less informed decisions and not to be as impressionable as a young child.

Sorry, let me re type that with grouping symbols, since I guess I was a little ambiguous:
You said [ she’s teaching her daughter to ( be hateful to people and God says it’s ok.) ]

In other words, putting words in her mouth, then arguing against them.

Discrimination is no such thing. Discrimination is making a choice. We all discriminate every day. My (and Jerseydiamond’s and WV_Woman’s) choice is to raise my children myself, without input from TV or gay-activists, and with my values (which include being nice to people, but not necessarily accepting their values).

You’re missing a couple of subtle points.
[ul][li]Gay people show up in force to protest shows they don’t approve of (do a search of the archives for ‘schlessinger’ if you don’t believe me). But then they’re real quick to bitch and moan if Christians do the same thing.[/li][li]TV Stations run on our dollars (indirectly). If a show on tv sucks, we get to have it pulled by telling them we don’t watch it and by not frequenting the companies that advertise during that show. If we don’t like what a show says, we get to do the same thing. If enough people don’t like what a station is doing, the station will either respond, or lose money.[/li][li]That kind of value judgement (who you should be nice to and what you are supposed to think) doesn’t belong on children’s tv or in slots where children are likely to be watching. It is the domain of the parents to teach morals to their own children, and nobody else’s business.[/ul][/li]

“If everybody thought like I do, there would be no problem.”
The battle cry of the thought police. You’re not making a strong case here.

225

Yeah. Right. You compare gays to militant terrorists and bank robbers and then blithely say, “No hate present at all . . .”

226

Actually, it is mentioned, and in the same condemnatory fashion as male homosexual behavior.

Regards,
Shodan

227

And to return to the OP, is it wrong for a group of private citizens to bring pressure to bear on a cable network to try to prevent them from running shows advocating positions with which they disagree?

Always? Or does it depend on the positions?

Regards,
Shodan

228

The point you’re missing is that bank robbers and terrorists wish to harm others; gay people wish not to be harmed and to be treated as human beings.

I don’t understand. What morals and values do you object to? My SO and I are good, moral people. We vote, we pay taxes, we recycle. We’re good neighbors and good friends. We both work hard, we don’t do drugs or hang out at clubs, and we lead normal, boring, suburban middle class lives. The only difference between us and any other couple is that my SO and I are both male. That you think that simple fact is harmful to children is grossly insulting and hurtful.

As for your bulleted points:
[ul]
[li]I disapprove of a priori censorship. I detest Dr. Laura and all she stands for, but I opposed the GLAAD protests because I believe in the power of the free market to test ideas.[/li][li]Again, the power of the free market. [/li][li]Nobody is teaching your kids morals. One TV show cannot possibly be a threat to your parenting. It’s just presenting the idea that hating kids with gay parents is wrong. Even if your church teaches that homosexuality is sinful, you still cannot disagree with the proposition that nobody deserves to be harmed or persecuted because they are different or come from non-standard families. [/li][/ul]

229

Most gay people didn’t protest Dr. Laura, just as most Christians didn’t protest the Nickelodeon show. Those who protested were ignorant fucks, arguing against something they hadn’t even seen.

You compare homosexuals to bank robbers and terrorists, surely you can see a difference. Let me spell it out for you- bank robbers hurt people, terrorists hurt people, homosexuals don’t hurt anyone.

You call us the thought gestapo, and put on your “poor persecuted Christian act”. When was the last time you were beaten for going to church? When was the last time you lost your job because somebody found out you’re a Christian?

230

Thanks, Gobear. I take a fairly similar stance.

For the record, the Bible is replete with people who were determined to enforce what they understood to be God’s Law on their fellow men, and who felt superior to and avoided associating with those who did not follow it in the exact manner as they did. And who claimed they knew exactly what was going on in the heart and mind of the sinners around them.

And when the Man Who most Christians claim to be God Incarnate as a Man on Earth, acting to forgive those around Him whom He saw sinning, showed up, of course he called these people to himself, right?

No, not exactly.

Jersey, Joe, and WV Woman, I regret strongly feeling compelled to make this comment to you – and I ask you to believe me when I say that it is not of my own will that I do so, but I feel compelled to quote to you, “Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, you have done it unto Me.” In the name of our mutual Lord, I beg of you not to hold that as a snide remark from me, but as something I was told to post (and you know from where) and pray about it before answering my post.

231

You are seriously equating me with a bank robber and a terrorist. Me specifically, because I’m a lesbian parent. This is not in the abstract: to you, I am as bad as a terrorist.

Personally, I wouldn’t send my child to the home of militant terrorists because my child might be in physical danger - and of course, if I knew I was living next to door to militant terrorists I’d call the police. If my daughter was friends with the child of bank robbers - well, why should I discriminate against that child?

(I can’t believe I’m actually debating this issue).

Hmm. I don’t have a partner, but if I did, I probably wouldn’t make out on the couch in front of my kids or their friends (same goes for if I were straight). Like I said, I don’t leave sex toys lying around. So what makes mine a gay household? A preponderance of pink? Barbara Streisand on the CD player? (Neither of which applies to my house anyway).

You don’t approve of my morals and values - even though, aside from my sexuality, you know nothing about me. So you disapprove of me, not because of what I would do in front of your child, or tell your child, but because of what I am.

Being gay has little to do with morals and values. It has to do with who you love.

[Not commenting on the issue of ‘gay people protesting shows’ because I don’t know enough about it, and am not involved enough in it to want to find out, being in a different country].

[quote]
[li]That kind of value judgement (who you should be nice to and what you are supposed to think) doesn’t belong on children’s tv or in slots where children are likely to be watching. It is the domain of the parents to teach morals to their own children, and nobody else’s business.[/li][/quote]
[/list]

See, I have completely the opposite point of view. The idea that children should have no moral input from anyone other than their parents gives me the heebie-jeebies. Such a one-track system of morals is what creates bigots and zealots (not suggesting you are either of those). I don’t believe in God, but I have read my daughter Bible stories, and I’ll discuss religion, etc with her when she’s older. She can make her own mind up. I’m not so insecure in my principles and ideals that I have to protect her from everyone else’s; are you?

232

Question-

If I understand the argument correctly, the issue is that certain people don’t want their children ‘subjected’ to/exposed to gay folks, since they feel that homosexuality is a sin.

If I further understand the position, all sin is the same in the eyes of the Lord, as evidenced by the whole “terrorist=gay=bank robber” thing.

If this is the case, then why does anyone allow their children to go anywhere and interact with anyone? Since of course all people are fallible, all sinners. Wouldn’t they be ‘subjected to/exposed to’ all of those other sins as well? SO, why does homosexuality get singled out for “cannot expose our kids to this”, when all people are sinners and all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord?

Is it perhaps that humans have designated certain sins to be more repulsive (obviously in their own eyes since it’s already been established that it isn’t in the eyes of the Lord)?

Or is it that in the case of homosexuality, the fear is that the parenting abilities will not be enough to ‘counteract’ what is considered to be a ‘sinful behavior’ example?

233

'Cause it’s icky!

( :rolleyes: )

Esprix

234

Joe_Cool:

Wow, when I first read this I thought it was directed the other way- making the analogy “their god tells them to [promote ignorance and “protect” their children from the evil gays], so they believe they’re morally right too.”

Although it’s agreed that crashing planes is not true Islamic doctrine, the guys who did it do beleive that. They were taught that Americans were evil and that violent tactics were called for by their god against America. Ans this view was upheld in their communities, and they were sheilded from other input.

So let’s see, a child is raised with a potentially dangerous and ignorant beleif system, is shielded from opposing views, and grows up to take action based on that beleif.

I’m sorry to use the clichéd terrorist angle, but it seems appropriate. Kids are raised with the belief that gays are evil, no one is allowed to impress upon then that that may not be the case, and the later in life they beat some guy up because he’s a “fag.”

I don’t mean to say that anti-gay folks are equivalent to active terrorists. But both mindsets can end up in very real terror and very real death, neither of which, methinks, God would approve of. You can’t raise a kid saying “Stay away from ___ people,” all the while hampering exposure to the ideas those ___s and then not expect them to had a well-rooted fear and/or hatred of ___s, and some of them will act upon it.

235

You know, wring, that’s an excellent point. And there is a lot more television programming that features bank robbers and terrorists than programming that features gay people. So, why does the Nickelodeon special deserve a boycott, but Ocean’s Eleven doesn’t?

236

me:

After some thinking, I retract this. The only difference seem to be the tactics used and the size of the death toll.

237

jjtm, if you don’t mean to say it, I will:

The anti-gay activists are in their actions and reasoning no different than the terrorists. And they deserve to be treated exactly the same as any member of Al Qaida.

Muslim fanatics use planes. Baptist fanatics use baseball bats. Either way its just an instrument used to kill whomever their Mythical Sky Pixie says to slaughter.

238

Ya know, others have already said what I would say in a much better way and probably nicer too. I just want to touch on a few points…

“Gay people” is a generalization. I have never protested any show being aired. I’ll even watch a show put on by the KKK because I think that it is important for people to be able to have a voice even if I don’t agree with it. You know, that First Amendment thing.

But I see shows with Christian values on around the clock. Again, I don’t mind them being there but why are your values just fine to teach impressionable children on TV yet you assume that I am going to send them on a one-way trip to hell because they visit my house?

Talk about taking something out of context. I said "If there were more people like dreamer, there would be no problem. I wasn’t referring to me.

I know dreamer, she is a wonderful friend, even though I am gay and even though she is a Christian. The fact is that I know more Christians like her than like you. I think they are wonderful people. Probably because they have never equated me to a terrorist like you were so eager to do.

239

Would you all feel better if my comparison was to lawyers and stock brokers? The point is that the Bible says it’s a sin. So I compared it to other sins where the people might not think they’re doing anything wrong.

Gobear, the moral value I disagree with is purely that you’re both male. I respect you, I see that you’re very even-tempered and intelligent. You seem like a good guy, but we disagree on what I consider to be an important thing, which I wouldn’t want my young child to be exposed to until she has had a grounding in the beliefs and morals I choose to teach her. I certainly have not taught her to be mean or abusive to anybody, based on anything.

To be honest, I don’t label people. I don’t see you as “that gay guy”. You’re just this guy. A guy who happens to be intelligent and add interesting things to discussions, but just a guy. I don’t see BLACK people, GAY people, TALL people, FAT people, JEWISH people, RICH people, etc. Just people.

Even when it comes to people who have gotten under my skin:
I don’t see that GAY jerk, just that jerk. If people choose to define themselves by a single trait, then that’s their own problem, not mine.

And that is one of the values I intend to pass on.

I do, however, judge people’s actions and beliefs according to mine. If a person is doing something that I feel my child should not be exposed to, then she won’t. Period. That doesn’t mean I think they’re bad people. It doesn’t mean I tell her to throw rocks at them or that I beat them up when I get the chance. It means that I’m taking responsibility for raising a child the way I think sheh should be raised, and that’s it.

Reading more into it and telling me what a hateful person I am just makes the discussion unpleasant and gets us all warned by the moderators.

240

But, I still don’t see that gender has any moral weight, let alone sexual orientation. The gender of one’s mate has no moral dimension; you might as well call people immoral because they have green eyes or write lefthanded. Sexual orientation is innate; nobody chooses to be gay or straight. Think about it. Every gay person in existence is the product of a heterosexual union, brought up in a world where heterosexuality is the norm, where straying from hererosexuality is punished, and STILL people turn out gay.

Your child could be exposed to gay people, hang out with them 24/7, and she/he would still be hetero as the day is long. Homosexuality is not contagious, but I’d like to think that tolerance, compassion, and understanding are.