Nickelodeon special on gay parents: Would you let your kids watch?

[WV_Woman]

Poly, that’s a good argument, but you are forgetting that, if the Bible is the final authority for you, it SPECIFICALLY says that women are not to sleep with women and men are not to sleep with men. It’s right there written pretty plainly, so there’s none of this “God makes homosexual love pure” stuff. Homosexual affairs are not acceptable in the eyes of God, Christian or no, any more than extramarital or premarital affairs are. As far as celibacy goes, it IS mandated for all Christians unless they are married to someone of the opposite sex. That’s just how it is; I don’t make the rules.

And now I have a question.

What is up with the overuse of the word “hate?”

Do some Christians literally HATE gays? Sure, just like there are gay people who HATE Christians.

Why do people throw that word around so much though?

“Hate speech.” Most of the time that term, concerning the whole homosexuality thing, is used to describe ANY kind of speech that is against homosexuality, from “grrr all gays should be shot in the streets” to “gee, ya know, I really don’t approve of that lifestyle.”

Just because someone doesn’t approve of what gay people are doing does NOT mean they hate them. So why do some people act as though if you DO disapprove of homosexuality, you must hate them?

And back to what we were talking about before: I never said that God cannot tell the difference between shoplifting and murdering. What I AM saying is that, unforgiven, both have the same consequences: hell. (That’s where Jesus comes in but that would be a hijack.)

Basically with the sin thing I am saying that there are no “big” sins and “little” sins. Different consequences, yes, but all sin separates us from God the same distance. It took the same sacrifice to save the alcoholic as it did to save the adulterer, or con artist or whatever your pet sin happens to be – Jesus on the cross.

Ya see?

[WV_Woman]

What makes parents think they can control what their kids see online?

Um, duh!!!

They’re the parents. They make the rules. And if Mom and Dad’s rules include not looking at trash online, that’s how it is.

Why is it people scream about parents “controlling” their kids, and then when some kid goes out and guns down 12 other kids at school, people immediately want to know where the parents were?

Make up your mind! Either allow parents to do their jobs, or let’s let all the kids run wild and do whatever they want.

[WV_Woman]

ACK! That was meant for another thread.

My bad!

[Esprix]

Disagreeing with rain…

Esprix

[MrVisible]

*Originally posted by WV_Woman *
Poly, that’s a good argument, but you are forgetting that, if the Bible is the final authority for you, it SPECIFICALLY says that women are not to sleep with women and men are not to sleep with men. It’s right there written pretty plainly, so there’s none of this “God makes homosexual love pure” stuff. Homosexual affairs are not acceptable in the eyes of God, Christian or no, any more than extramarital or premarital affairs are. As far as celibacy goes, it IS mandated for all Christians unless they are married to someone of the opposite sex. That’s just how it is; I don’t make the rules.

Nope, but you sure do interpret them a lot.

Like, for instance… do you keep a Kosher kitchen? Does your husband make sure he never trims or shaves his beard? Those rules come from Leviticus, just like the one against man laying with man; why does one rule get followed, and the other ignored?

I’m guessing that you don’t favor the death penalty for adultery, either. Or shunning men who have sex with their wives during their period. The whole book of Leviticus is a set of rules, which are consistently ignored by Christians. Rules for sacrifices and warfare which make no sense in the context of the current times. Why are you at liberty to pick and choose between them?

And back to what we were talking about before: I never said that God cannot tell the difference between shoplifting and murdering. What I AM saying is that, unforgiven, both have the same consequences: hell. (That’s where Jesus comes in but that would be a hijack.)

However, the Bible makes it very clear that in God’s eyes, a sin is a sin is a sin. Liars=bankrobbers=axe murderers=prostitutes=homosexuals-gossipers=etc etc. It’s all the same.

See? You did say that.

So, if all sins have the same consequences, you’ll be going to hell for eating pork. I’ll be going to hell for loving my partner. If that is indeed the case, then I’ll be proud to be in hell, and I will have nothing but scorn for an immoral god.

But, you see, I don’t believe in your god. I don’t want to follow your rules. And I keep running into laws, based on your views of morality, that make my life difficult. And I keep running into people who, based on your views of morality, pose a threat to my health and happiness.

Every time I want to hold my boyfriend’s hand in public, I have to make a tactical assessment of the situation, to try and keep from getting killed.

Gay people in our culture get insulted, discriminated against, beaten, and killed in vast numbers. Is it any wonder we think that you hate us?

[WV_Woman]

Vast numbers?

I am not one to ask for a cite but this time I’m going to.

As far as the whole hell thing goes, it’s totally your decision.

“And I keep running into people who, based on your views of morality, pose a threat to my health and happiness.”

How does somebody’s view of morality pose a threat to you? Do you have to have everyone pat your head and tell you that the way you live your life is just peachy keen? If so you’re going to have a real hard time in life, and you would even if you were as straight as they come. Not everybody is going to approve of you.

As long as someone leaves you alone, what do YOU care what they think of the way you live your life?

Why do you want to control what other people think?

[pldennison]

Poly, that’s a good argument, but you are forgetting that, if the Bible is the final authority for you, it SPECIFICALLY says that women are not to sleep with women and men are not to sleep with men.

Actually, not once in the entire Bible is the issue of woman-woman sex mentioned. Not once.

Adding to God’s wod is a sin, you know.

[WV_Woman]

Try Leviticus and get back to me.

[musicguy]

WV_Woman,

Unfortunately, you skipped over a very valid question, posed by MrVisible. Why don’t you follow other parts of the old testament with the same vigor that you do the part against gays. Who made the determination that some parts are sin and some parts aren’t. Or do you actually follow all of the other parts of Leviticus. For, if you do, you are consistent. If you don’t, there really is more to it than just “The bible says it’s wrong”. Please explain.

[MrVisible]

*Originally posted by WV_Woman *
**Vast numbers?

I am not one to ask for a cite but this time I’m going to.**

No problem.

Some of the challenges our society presents gay people with:

Insults - “97 % of students in public high schools report regularly hearing homophobic remarks from their peers” and “53% of students report hearing homophobic comments made by school staff” - Making Schools Safer for Gay and Lesbian Youth: Report of Massachusetts Governor’s Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth, 1993.

Violence - In 2000, according to the FBI Hate Crime Statistics Report, 1486 gay people were the victims of hate crimes.

Homosexuals are probably the most frequent victims [of hate crimes] in the U.S. - US Department of Justice, The Response of the Criminal Justice System to Bias Crime: An Exploratory View, 1987.

The vast majority of victims of anti-lesbian/gay violence - possibly more than 80% - never report the incident, often due to fear of being “outed.” --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project Annual Report, 1996.

Discrimination - A survey of 191 employers revealed that 18% would fire, 27% would refuse to hire and 26% would refuse to promote a person they perceived to be lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Schatz and O’Hanlan, “Anti-Gay Discrimination in Medicine: Results of a National Survey of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Physicians,” San Francisco, 1994.

Problems faced by youth - Lesbian, gay and bisexual youth are at a four times higher risk for suicide than their straight peers. --Gibson P., LCSW, “Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide,” Report of the Secretary’s Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1989.

42% of homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Orion Center, Survey of Street Youth, Seattle, WA: Orion Center, 1986.

For a really good summary of the problems detailed above, PBS’ Frontline program ran a show on these issues.

And here are some articles describing some individual cases and studies.

How does somebody’s view of morality pose a threat to you?

See above.

Any answers forthcoming to the questions I asked?

Why do you get to pick and choose which biblical rules you follow?

And…

Is it any wonder we think you hate us?

[WV_Woman]

I don’t mind you asking the question, musicguy, but what it would take for me to explain why Christians do that would COMPLETELY hijack this thread. I’d have to go back 6,000 and discuss Adam and Eve and the first sin and what happened when she ate the fruit and what a blood covenant is and the Jews and Moses and prophecies about Jesus and the cross and yada yada yada yada etc etc etc.

As far as the gay thing goes, in a NUTSHELL, yes, it’s mentioned in the Old Testament, but it’s also mentioned in the New as well, thus why that particular rule gets followed. (Christians don’t do kosher because all food was made clean after Jesus died — the reason why being very long, complicated, drawn out and not a discussion for this thread.)

/end hijack.

Here’s a question for ya’ll though (although I’m pretty sure I already know what ya’ll are gonna say).

Whatcha think of “ex-gays?”

Have they truly changed, or are they “living a lie to please society?” Or were they ever gay to begin with. If someone can be straight and then go gay, why can’t someone be gay and go straight?

CAN someone be gay, and decide, through whatever means they decide to use (therapy, religion, etc. etc.) decide to be straight … or is the best they can hope for is simply NOT acting on their impulses to nail the same sex?

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by WV_Woman *
**Try Leviticus and get back to me. **

Leviticus doesn’t talk about lesbianism or women having sex with women…just men having sex with men.

[Polycarp]

[quote]
Carefully Taught

 You've got to be taught to hate and fear
 You've got to be taught from year to year  
 It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear.  
 You've got to be carefully taught.
 
 
 You've got to be taught before it's too late  
 before you are six or seven or eight  
 To hate all the people your relatives hate  
 You've got to be carefully taught.

(Excerpted from “Carefully Taught” by Oscar Hammerstein II, from the musical South Pacific; I found no copyright data but believe the estates of Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein II retain copyright.)

[MrVisible]

Actually, what you labelled as a hijack in your last post was the pertinent issue, WV_Woman. You didn’t answer the question very well, though. Why should I respect your interpretation of a gospel that doesn’t apply to me? Why should that interpretation by ensconced in law?

For an interesting counterpoint to the interpretation you espouse, try this sermon by Rev. Tim Ahrens on the subject, from which I quote…

Before speaking to the Old & New Testament writings, I’d like to point out that Jesus is silent on the question of homosexuality. Although he addreses many issues head on, he says nothing on this. Why not ?

As to the ex-gay thing, well, how is that relevant? An interesting topic for another thread, perhaps, but I fail to see its pertinence here.

[SisterCoyote]

WV -

I strongly suspect that a number of those so-called “ex-gays” are bisexuals who are suppressing a desire, natural for them, in order to fit in.

I say this because, as a bisexual woman, I could choose to have relationships exclusively with men, thereby fitting the “street definition” of heterosexual. This does not eliminate my desire for other women, and is not a way I would choose to live. Because, IMNSHO, it’s asking me to hate a part of myself enough to try and expunge it.

Also, I believe a number of the more famous “ex-gay” cases have since “backslid” and admitted that it never really worked for them.

[Polycarp]

Oops – song quote was meant for another thread (not that it’s not relevant here).

Leviticus has no prohibition on woman-woman sex, but Romans does (if you read Romans 1 as legislation – I for one find it as descriptive of the ennui felt by jaded appetites looking for happiness without God and the lengths they will go to pleasure it – in the first century and a few years ago when “gay chic” was in vogue among the jet set).

However, Paul’s comment is that we are free from the Law – not to sin but to be recipients of grace. He had a major problem with self-pleasuring behavior that did not uplift the spirit and show love for one’s brothers and sisters. In that context, the impersonal homosexual acts common in the first century world are pointed out, along with making use of a prostitute’s “stock in trade” and a bunch of other sexual sins, and a large number of other behaviors which are also condemned but which don’t seem to bother conservative Christians in the doing of them.

Finally, you miss my point. At least a large proportion of the people who are condemning people for being gay are not talking about the sex acts which are legislated against in Scripture – they’re opposed to and disgusted by the people even having the feelings of love or desire for another. That was what I meant by “God never said, ‘Thou shalt not be gay.’” And that little bit of bigotry (and frankly I cannot find another word for it) will come back on them at the Last Judgment – having judged others, they will incur the judgment on themselves.

[JerseyDiamond]

MrVisible
I always thought that “be tolerant to homosexuality” would fall under the umbrella of “be nice to people who are different.” But I guess gay people are just too different to be nice to in your book, huh, Jersey? What if the show had said “be nice to everybody, except those hateful gays. Them you can make fun of, ridicule, harass, and discriminate against.” Would that have suited you better? Would that make for better kid’s TV? **

You just don’t get it , do you MrVisible? I have never been mean to person because he or she is gay. As a matter of fact I happen to think Cajun Man and Dr. Matrix are the cat’s meow. I have hung out with them at dopefests in NYC. I would have no objections to my daughter meeting them. I think she would love them. That doesn’t mean I would want to introduce their values to her. It is my responsibility to teach values to my child.
If the show said “be nice to EVERYBODY” that would have been fine. That would have made for a better children’s Tv show.
You don’t seem to know the difference beetween being tolerant to people and being intolerant to what they do or believe.

Polycarp
Jersey, while we have some disagreements over how God expects us to treat gay people, I have never had a problem with the idea that you have a right to raise your child with the moral views you espouse. I presume they are founded strongly on the teachings of Christ, and to a lesser extent on the views of Paul, John, James, and the writers of the O.T.

A bit of a hijack Poly, the only real disagreement we have is that I take all of the Bible as authority and you take parts. We as Christians are not under the covenant of the Jews so that is why we don’t follow the laws of the O.T. Most things we are not suppose to do are common sense (stealing etc.). ** end of hijack**

Poly, I never said that God expects us to treat gay people any particular way, have I? No.

** Polycarp** And I don’t think anybody else here would have the slightest objection to that either.

That I doubt

I have two main points to make to you: (1) There is a very large difference in my mind between “condoning homosexuality” if you believe it sinful, and condemning people who practice it. IF you happen to be right on the proper interpretation of Scripture (and you certainly are espousing the traditional understanding of it), then Esprix and all his colleagues, including the folks that the Nick. show highlighted, are in fact unrepentant sinners. But, dear lady, IMHO it is God’s prerogative to do the condemning. It is not ours. People like Wildmon and the Traditional Values Coalition are not merely affirming your Biblically-based stance; they’re attempting to make it mandatory that everybody have to follow that stance. That is where I draw the line.

My dear Poly, I am not condemning the people, that is God’s job. I am simply not condoning the sin and I will not let my daughter be taught tht homosexuality it is alright. It would be just like the devil to make nice of it and say it’s ok, this way he will have more people deceived. That is what he wants. It’s just like my signature says.

** Polycarp**
Secondly, though we differ in some matters on how we follow our mutual Lord, I humbly implore you to take my word on this: Jerry Falwell is no minister of the Gospel.

I don’t know that much about Jerry Falwell. I’ll have to look him up on the web.

** Polycarp**
WV Woman, it’s been my experience that at conversion and after God takes our sinful human natures and reshapes our lives to follow Him, working with who we are to make each of us the best person that that person can be. What then is what He will do to reshape the inner spirit of a gay man? IMHO, it would be to be the best gay man that that person can be – and I’ve seen this happen.

WV Woman said it best when she spoke of how a bank robber should be the best bank robber he can be.

If you are a bank robber you should stop being a bank robber, repent and be the best Godly person you can be.

** pldennison **
This only goes so far, I’m afraid. If their parents are teaching them to, say, hate black people and harass them at every opportunity, I’d say that I have a moral obligation to interfere with that. If the parents are bigoted cretins, they’re going to raise children who are as well, and frankly we can do with a lot fewer of those in the world.

No, you don’t have that right. While I can understand your want, it’s not your right.
The problem is that people seem to think that morality is decided on by popular vote, when in fact it is decided on by God.

pldennison
Well, sorry, folks, but that dog don’t hunt. Sure, you have a right to educate your children in the moral atmosphere you see fit. But your kids don’t exist in a vacuum–they have to interact with other people. And how they are taught to interact with those people, and especially with those people who aren’t like Mom and Dad, goes a long way towards where we are as a nation.

That’s right, our kids don’t live in a vacuum that’s why we need to raise them right, starting young.
** Proverbs 22:6 - Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.**

Eve
JerseyDiamond, I am just curious—after spending all these years teaching your daughter that homosexuality is wrong and unnatural and unacceptable and immoral, what would your reaction be if she turns out to be gay? Assuming, of course, she doesn’t kill herself out of terror at telling her Loving Dad . . .

I don’t know how she’ll feel about talking to her dad, since I’m her mother. But when she talks to me, it won’t be a problem. Again, I teach her to be open with me. She knows how I feel about her and she knows that I would love her know matter what.
I think that Proverbs 22:6 says it best.

done for now, JD

[wring]

RE: “if the show had said be nice to everybody that would have been ok”.

Well, the issue was, they’d discovered that a certain classification of children routinely suffered more harassment and ‘mean treatment’ from their peers than others, based on circumstances revolving around the child’s parents. And the producers of the show decided that was a relevant issue, and instead of ignoring the reality that some suffer more, they decided to meet it head on and say you ‘shouldn’t be mean to this group of kids who you’ve been mean to’.

See, when I see a group of kids picking on one child, the correct action to take is “Hey stop being mean to that kid”, IMHO

[JerseyDiamond]

** no** matter what.
I thought I should correct myself, I know how picky you guys are.

[MrVisible]

Originally posted by Jersey Diamond
If the show said “be nice to EVERYBODY” that would have been fine. That would have made for a better children’s Tv show.

So, you believe that you can get kids to be nice to everybody by telling them to be nice to everybody. How charming.

I believe that you can get people to be nice to other people by fostering understanding of the differences between them while emphasizing everyone’s underlying humanity. Which this show did very well. Did you watch it?

You don’t seem to know the difference beetween being tolerant to people and being intolerant to what they do or believe.

Okay, then explain it to me. Give me details. How do you do that?

Oh, and nice use of the “some of my best friends are gay” bit.