Just as a side note, JD, I find your signature amusingly ironic.
What better conquest for Satan than to have the world accept him as a man of God? If I was Satan, I’d be hellbent on taking over the church and misrepresenting the word of God. Teaching all those loving people how to hate.
Funny, I can’t tell if that’s already happened.
Really? Huh. Since, based on careful consideration of the available evidence, I have decided that gods do not exist, I can assume you consider me immoral. Oh well.
For me to honestly answer your question would require that I reveal very personal information on this message board. I think it is an important question though so I will try my best. I hope this explains, at least, one gay mans perspective.
From about the age of 6, I knew I was attracted to my own sex. I had absolutely wonderful parents, a strong father figure. I was neither molested, nor introduced to sex by any other means. I say this because some would like to believe that these are things that cause homosexuality. At about 8 years old, I learned that having this attraction (which was not really sexual) was not a good thing. Anti-gay slurs were already commonplace in that age group. I learned that I must hide what I felt or I would have no friends. That is what I chose to do. At about age 13 or so, I befriended a family that introduced me Christianity. I began going to church with them and believed that I was a Christian and God loved me. As I reached puberty, my sexuality began to kick in and I was scared because, although I was told that it was wrong to like members of my own sex, I still did. I began dating girls though. At this point, I remember thinking “This is just a phase or something, I couldn’t really be gay”. I so wanted to be straight. I prayed very hard that I would start being interested in girls. I continued to date and looking back, I basically shoved my sexuality down as far as I could inside of myself.
The problem is that this created some severe problems in my life. First, I had absolutely no self-esteem. None. I could barely look in the mirror. Then I found something that made me feel better, drugs. It started out innocently enough, a few cigarettes to “fit in”. You see, one of the things I wanted most in this life was just to fit in with someone, to be “normal”. I continued on this path throughout all of my teens. As I got older, mid-twenties, I still hated myself. My life was going nowhere. I was still dating and actually did “fall in love” with a woman (still a dear friend). The only problem was, it was a friend kind of love. There was nothing more to it really, no matter how much I hoped there would be. When that relationship, all 6 years of it, fell apart, I began using cocaine pretty heavily. I no longer cared about myself, or whether I lived at all. I was slowly and expensively committing suicide. Finally, when I had reached rock-bottom, something inside clicked and I realized that it was time to admit that I was gay. I had tried so hard to be something else but that hadn’t worked. At this point, I felt that even if the world hated me because of my decision, so what, I already hated myself anyway. Well, what happened was, when I admitted this to myself, and more importantly, to others, I changed completely. I learned that I really do like myself. It was like a 50 pound bag of cement had been lifted off of my shoulders. I immediately stopped doing cocaine, cold turkey, no rehab. I stopped in September 1998 and have never touched it since. I became more successful at my job. I learned who my true friends were and none of them judged me or disappeared. I learned to appreciate what a true friend was. My life did a complete turnaround. I wake up every day, to this day, happy to be alive and more importantly, happy to be me. That is my story. (sorry if I bored anyone)
So, is it possible to change. I don’t believe so. I tried extremely hard and it almost killed me. I can only speak for myself but I don’t believe that I ever had a choice in this matter. I also believe that the people that try to change are trying to change something that they can’t. Yes, you can go into hardcore denial but that denial will manifest itself in one way or another. It will damage you.
I also don’t think that anyone would ever choose to be gay because it is choosing a very difficult, dangerous, life, one in which you are faced with bigotry, some subtle and some not, every single day. Who would want that? Would you? In my youth, I was very receptive to change and couldn’t have prayed harder for it. It didn’t happen. I figure that this is because of one of two reasons. Either, there was no God listening, or God was listening but wanted me to be as he made me, not as others who followed him wanted me to be. All I know for certain is that when I finally stopped pretending to be something I wasn’t and stopped living a lie, I truly started living.
I hope that this gives you a better understanding of what some of us go through in our lives, and why we are how we are. Also, why we can sometimes get defensive. Most of us try to live our lives in a positive way, not infringing on others and not hurting anyone. When I hear that I am “bad” or “unworthy” or whatever, I take offense.
See my comment on one famous televangelist on page 2 of this thread, Mr. V.
Tough question, WV Woman. Because I don’t subscribe to anybody’s orthodoxy on this issue – neither the gay activist stance that they’re totally useless nor the Christian stance that they can “cure homosexuality.”
Best evidence I’ve seen is that they’re largely failures, with a total “success rate” of maybe 10-15% (this is derived from anecdotal evidence, not from statistics, which with one exception that is based on a skewed “statistical universe” are apparently non-existent). In general, as Sister Coyote has already mentioned, most successes seem to be people with bisexual instincts who have self-classified as gay and who have learned to suppress their gay desires while giving vent to their heterosexual desires in the context of courtship and marriage. There are also men who have found solace in Christ’s love, admitting that they still desire men but now find the idea to be sinful and find strength in Christ to resist it. And there are a lot of cases where gay people have put forth enormous and obviously sincere effort to “change” and have failed utterly, both in a trust-in-Christ context and by main effort.
I have one online friend who is participating in one of those ministries, which seems to be doing some good in healing his troubled soul, dealing with his desires and interfacing how he feels with his faith, which explicitly condemns homosexual activity. I haven’t participated in a thread with him in some months, but in seeing posts he’s made here and there, I can see an improved attitude (though he still seems to be trying to manage other people’s lives when he doesn’t catch himself at it, an entirely separate problem).
IMHO, and I know you and Jersey disagree, God made each of us for a reason, made us who we are for a reason, and denial of one’s full self and sterile self-hate are not what He promised. For a gay person, as for a straight one, I suspect that that fulfillment and richness which God promises comes either in sublimating one’s drive to do His work or in a covenanted monogamous relationship with the person he or she truly loves. However, I cannot demand that you accept that POV.
Jersey, I accept the whole Bible, same as you. But I put my full trust and faith in the God Who inspired its writers, not in it. Like anything in the world, the Bible too can be an idol standing in the place in one’s heart where only God deserves to be.
or, another way to look at the question - some feel that human sexuality is more like a scale than an ‘either/or’. That some people are exclusively heterosexual, some people exclusively homosexual, some seem to be asexual, and the rest fall all over those continuums.
So, in some of those ‘cured’ cases, what you may find is that the person was more bi-sexual and chose to act on one or the other set of feelings at any given point in their life. Or they may indeed be denying their sexuality regardless of consequences.
of course, any person can choose to act on their sexual feelings or not. For those who are exclusively homosexual, they certainly can choose to not act on those feelings. Does this mean that they’re no longer attracted to members of the same gender? Highly doubtful, I would think (and those persons here who’ve attested to that attempt seem to agree).
Whenever I think of “ex-gays,” I think of this. Greatest “Gotcha ya!” in recent memory.
Ask yourself this, WV_Woman: Could you, for whatever reason, force yourself to be a lesbian? As a straight man, I cannot imagine myself being romantically attracted to or sexually involved with another man. It just isn’t something that appeals to me. I assume the same is true of you for a straight woman.
So why should we imagine that a gay man or woman could simply “flip a switch” inside and start being attracted to the opposite sex?
Thank You, musicguy.
Musicguy, your post was not up when I began composing mine – and I cannot argue with your firsthand evidence. WV Woman, that sort of story, repeated over and over and over again, is what you’ll find to be the case among most gay men. I look forward to seeing your response to it and to my post.
You’re welcome, SisterCoyote 
Just for the record, I would like to say that even though this thread has wandered somewhat from the original OP, that is fine with me. I think we are involved in a topic very worthy of discussion.
Polycarp,
I hope my story can help you to understand why I so appreciate what you contribute to this board and more than likely, to society in general. I only wish I shared your eloquence with words.
Thank you so much
MrV:
“Why should I respect your interpretation of a gospel that doesn’t apply to me?”
I don’t care if you “respect” it or not. I wasn’t even addressing you when I was discussing with Polycarp what the Bible says on the subject. If you wanna be an atheist, that’s your right. Go for it. Just don’t whine when people who DO follow the Bible tell you “umm … the Bible says homosexuality is a no no.”
“Like anything in the world, the Bible too can be an idol standing in the place in one’s heart where only God deserves to be.”
Then that is saying that Jesus is an idol.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. (Hint: talkin bout Jesus there)
Musicguy, thank you for sharing your story with us.
I must say, though: while I don’t believe that being molested AUTOMATICALLY makes someone gay, I see a pretty high correlation. You are the first gay man I have ever met who was not, and I’ve known more than my fair share. No, I don’t know every gay man on the planet and I’m sure there are many who share your story.
I’ve never known an actual lesbian (just a few experimenting bisexual chicks) so I have no idea what the story is on them.
Funny, I’ve never met a gay man who was molested, and, as you’ve probably guessed, all my friends are gay. Fancy that.
For the record, I was never molested, had the best homelife imaginable, a wonderful set of parents that taught me right from wrong… and turned out queer. (Yay me!)
Esprix
Oh. My. God.
Let the floodgates open and the posts flow about her feet. You’re about to be inundated with personal stories, WV_Woman. Personal stories of gay men who haven’t been molested. Which you’ll find are quite, quite numerous.
Let me be the first, after your impolitic announcement. I was never molested in my life. I’m gay. Thank you.
Your world is very, very small, isn’t it?
jayjay
Dammit, Esprix! You’re too fast when you ride that damn One-Trick Pony! :sulk:
jayjay
Did I #%(#&(% SAY that all gay men have been molested?!
Learn to read, dammit!
BLARGH!!!
I’m tired!!!
I’m going to BED!!!
I might even wake up in a better mood!!!
So, can I complain when people try and suppress accurate informtion about homosexuality, and promote their own ignorant views on it instead? Can I speak up when my rights as a citizen are denied, and I can be booted from my job and my house with no other reason than the prejudice against me? Can I be outraged when a gay couple, raising a happy family, can have their children taken away from them without provocation, simply for being gay? Can I protest when gay people are beaten and murdered with alarming frequency?
These are the results of your political stance, based on your religious philosophy. Can you really live with that? Is it God’s will that you work to make people’s lives miserable, that there are thousands of kids and adults out there who fear for their safety because of beliefs like yours, reinforced by the kind of ignorance that would quash an even-handed kid’s show simply for addressing the issue tangentially? What kind of God would have you do such things?
And for your information, I’m not an atheist. I just don’t believe in a petty, vengeful, scheming, hypocritical god with the manners and morals of a spoiled child. I hold my infinite, omniscient deities to a higher standard than I do the people they’ve created.
Oh, and I was never molested either. So nyah.
I’ve been reading since before I was in kindergarten, thank you. I read quite well. As a matter of fact, I read with comprehension. When one says
the reader of that line may be justified in thinking that you don’t have much experience with interacting with gay folks and wish to introduce you to a wider experience in interacting with those gay folks.
I’d also like, in my defense, to note that nowhere in my response to that post did I say that you’d said that all gay men were molested. Learn to read, dammit…
jayjay
To be fair, jayjay, she did also say
“My story” included the fact that I was also not molested. Unfortunately, you were not only not first in proclaiming your unmolestated history, but were actually the third.
You take the bronze this time
Of course jayjay, now I see where you stated
I could probably use a little brushing up on my reading skills as well.