I didn’t realize you grew up in the projects. 
Vick did something horrible. If it’s your opinion that something must be wrong with him psychologically, you’re welcome to that. From what we can tell, he has largely said and done the right things since he got out of jail. He’s said he is sorry. You don’t have to accept that as genuine, but some people will and they don’t need to hold his crimes against him in perpetuity.
Hold on a second… Nike has been an admitted human rights violator since the turn of the century and you are just getting to boycotting them now???
all kidding aside… I took me a while to forgive Vick for what he was involved with… I’ve grown up loving, and being taught to respect, all animals… anything that has to do with animal cruelty gets my blood boiling… but hey… even Jesus was known to forgive a guy every now and then… Why not Vick… He did time… Claims to be a changed man and for what we can see, he is… let him live his life… earn his livelihood…
As for Nike… A pox on them for sullying the name of the Great Goddess of Victory… I would agree that this appears to be a horrible PR move… but those marketers at Nike are a persuasive and crafty bunch… who knows what kind of campaign they have planned for Vick…
as for the people taking the it was his “culture” path… that direction of argumentation falls right inline with supporting the Taliban’s form of Sharia law in Afghanistan and genital mutilation in African cultures… great company to keep…
Wrong is wrong and you don’t have to be any particular colour or level of affluence to be able to tell the difference between right and wrong…
Dog fighting is wrong…
You’re right, because that’s exactly what I said. I imagine you’ll come up with the perfectly moral parallel for this situation in 3…2…1…
Not quite Godwining the thread, but close in spirit. This is absolutely what I was saying!! Bring on the raping!
This is obviously a ridiculous overreaction, and not quite responsive to the point that I was making. I’m not trying to excuse what Vick did, or his culture, or anything like that. I remarked on the strangeness of people to attribute their own values and beliefs to others who obviously don’t share them (an argument that has gone on for centuries, especially regarding the judgment of past cultures). Sure, there’s a baseline of moral decency, but even that is damn near impossible to agree upon. So instead of taking a moral high horse and condemning someone for life for a mistake they made, a mistake we attribute to them based on what we consider right or wrong, I’d rather value a person for their ability to change. Unlike the OP, of course.
But then again, forgive me for forgetting this is the Dope and having an opinion with any more nuance than Black or White is absolutely not allowed lest the sharks smell blood in the water, or imagine they do, at least.
You don’t know anything about me or how I grew up. You don’t know anything about how Vick grew up, and from your OP and this comment, it appears you may not know anything. Period.
I’m not going to rehash the same tired arguments on this, and other similar topics, but just to say I don’t excuse what he did. And I don’t excuse that culture either. But I can give a person a chance to change and learn and grow.
And failing that, it doesn’t fucking matter who Nike sponsors. If you can’t see the value in getting behind someone who has messed up and then gone on to do everything right and perhaps inspire others to take the right path, well I don’t know what hope there is for you Oakminster.
What part of this argument couldn’t also apply to a player that raped or killed someone? “We can’t judge, it’s their culture” is even sillier when you consider he grew up in the same fucking time and country as us. Are black people supposed to be like the ancient Spartans where things are so different for them that we can’t even try to apply our standards of what is obviously considered right and wrong by the vast majority of our society? If anything, that’s pretty racist - those blacks don’t even know that torturing animals to death is wrong!
I’m not even anti-Vick. Sure, he’s probably a scumbag asshole. A whole lot of NFL players are. They beat their wives, they sometimes kill people. I don’t like it, but I’m watching these guys compete in gladiatorial combat, I’m not trying to become their best friends. So I have no special hardon for Vick.
But I think trying to say “oh well where he comes from it’s not really wrong” is some bullshit. You’re making generic “you can’t judge people unless you’re in their exact position” which could be applied to just about any transgression - murder, cultural oppression of women, whatever.
Your first post in this thread also has nothing to do with “I’d rather value a person for their ability to change.”, you made no mention of Vick being a reformed man. You only hinted that his original transgression wasn’t really wrong because he comes from a subculture that embraces it.
Really, you don’t think you’re escalating the point just a little bit? Not even a tiny little bit? I want to make sure I have this right. Putting animals against each other for sport is absolutely analogous to murdering a human being? That’s a strange moral equivalency to make, but if you think they’re the same, okay.
I’d also like to note that in addition to your hyperbolic analogy tactic, you’ve also now brought up racism against “those blacks.” Because no other people ever get into dog fighting or cockfighting or anything like that. Just “those blacks.” I didn’t know that. Ignorance fought?
On a side note, there are parts of this country where you might not believe it is the same time and country. Shocking, I know, but this entire country isn’t uniform.
I don’t think I tried to say it’s not wrong, and I don’t think I hinted too strongly at that point either. I have commented on this forum before that what Vick did was wrong, though, just not in this thread. I was making the point that attributing our values to other people who obviously don’t share them is a strange thing to do (and I’ll remember that it’s a forum rule that I have to parrot every single other of the multiple responses verbatim before I can take a conversation perhaps in a different direction, thanks).
I guess it applies to other transgressions, if they were an accepted and celebrated part of a culture or society. Murder, oppression of women, etc., generally isn’t, but I’d rather take the stance that people don’t always grow up learning the same values. Sometimes they have to be taught. I’m not sure that ignorance automatically makes a person irrevocably inhuman or evil. And I’m not sure we are all born with the same moral compass. Sometimes goodness takes nurturing.
And so we can avoid a thousand replies where you accuse me of saying or believing something I don’t, I’ll be clear once again. I’m not excusing what he did. I’m not excusing what that subculture does. I don’t agree with it or think it’s in any way okay. But I also don’t understand it. And I’m not going to condemn someone because I think differently from them, value things differently, and don’t understand why they believe the way they do.
We have raised dogs up in our estimation, as a choice. We think it’s incredibly gross to cut a dog up and eat it around here, for instance. Some of us even think that it’s like really offensive when a dog is left alone and gets lonely without anything to do, and give dogs anti-anxiety drugs. Things like that.
But it is just the truth that there are very large populations who do not think those things are true. I don’t know why you’re making it a race thing, either; white people fight dogs. In some places, you grow up thinking dog fights are like a neighborhood get-together, and even a good business to get into. That’s the environment. You’re like six years old, all the neighborhood badasses are into it… what else are you going to think? Vick wasn’t six years old anymore, which is why what he did wasn’t OK, and in fact was pretty sick, but I think it’s clear that the level of depravity is tempered somewhat by his background.
Your questions about setting people on fire and stuff are just silly. They can be dismissed just by pointing out that we aren’t talking about people. There’s kind of a huge psychological difference. There’s never been a time when a person would see another person get his head cut off and not immediately have it occur to him, you know, that person did not want to have his head cut off. That would be unpleasant.
Animals, we treat differently. Bullfighting has a rich and storied tradition. There’s an SDMB thread about setting up death matches between bugs. You can do basically whatever the hell you want to anything that breathes underwater - throw hooks in it, boil it alive, cut it up while it’s swimming around - and nobody really cares that much. People have always fought dogs and birds and bears and rats and raccoons and things. It’s far more common a cultural understanding than one that says none of those things should happen. Is allowing for some kind of cultural differences for a Mexican person’s enjoyment of cockfighting or a Spanish person’s enjoyment of bullfighting also literally the same as saying killing people is fine?
It doesn’t help us if you’re inconsistent. (guitar twang)—Jesus Christ Superstar
You aren’t going to condemn those that think differently than you do, but I know nothing and there is no hope for me? LOL. When come back, bring game.
:smack:
You’ll figure it out, eventually. Good luck with that.
Imaginary advice from Vick’s agent: “Let’s get all the endorsement money we can up front. Hell, they can’t boycott all of them, and so what if they do?”
Just what I’m thinking from my bud’s OP. And, other than my involvement with the animal welfare community and Michael Vick, I have no idea what endorsement entails, so what I just now wrote needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Thanks
Q
I remember someone on ESPN or CNN or some such taking this opinion to Vick’s old neighborhood and I believe they found a few that admitted to watching a dogfight, but they found a lot more who were offended at the question. One guy even went off on a crazy tirade basically asking the reporter “Why the fuck would you think black folks are OK with dogfighting? Vick is an evil son of a bitch and dogfighting is NOT a black thing.”
So no, I don’t really believe that.
I was too tired yesterday to engage in the “that’s not what I said” show with Jules because he doesn’t get the point of demonstrating logical implications. The idea of moral relativism/evaluating things in context/etc etc is also a bigger debate than a silly endorsement thread too I guess.
But “It’s kinda weird how we attribute our own values to people who grew up entirely different from us, in a different place, in a different culture. But, you know, fuck them for not believing in things you believe in, amirite?” can be used to defend pretty much anything where you can justify it as the norm of a certain subculture. It’s such a blatant, widespread defense that says we basically can never judge anyone if you can assign it to some subculture they’ve been exposed to.
If a guy grows up in a tough neighborhood and gangs are a big part of their life when they grow up, the logical implication then is that if they murder someone - well, that’s part of their culture, so we can’t judge. Bullshit.
“We’re hypocritical about animals” is another approach that others have taken here that’s generally more correct. People are wired differently about animals - a movie where a dozen sympathizable characters get killed is routine and unremarkable, but kill a sympathetic cute animal and people will cry and say they just can’t watch that movie. I think it’s partly because similar to very young children they rely entirely on us and trust us and we feel extra responsible for their vulnerabilities and whatever happens to them. But in a strict logical sense, it is quite strange that people can root for players who beat their wives or have killed people in DUIs and such than one who was extremely cruel to animals.
On the other hand, that type of cruelty to animals is far more intentionally and extendedly malicious than a DUI accidental killing. It probably says more about your character. It’s much more deliberate.
As far as my racism implications, I may have jumped the gun there. I’ve heard people trying to excuse it by basically saying “poor black people are like that, you can’t judge” which is just the racism of lowered expectations. But that wasn’t actually expressed by anyone in this thread, so I’m sorry for dragging that into this.