No child left behind, even if we have to cheat!

The BBQ Pit
1

Big-ass Broward County Sun-Sentinel URL mercifully hidden.

OK, where to begin.

:mad:

It’s bad enough that they have pushed a test to such a high place that nobody can graduate without jumping through that hoop. It would make more sense to predicate graduation upon a count of credits accumulated through the years, as opposed to One Bigass Event. But to decide that the test is failing too many people and then to design loopholes in the system to pass along those students anyway is simply disingenuous.

I understand the attraction of standardized testing, of course. It is supposed to enforce certain minimums on the graduate, and the college-bound, population. But it only works if the tests are absolute: If there is a way around the test that will pass students along easier, we’ve just dropped the bar for everyone and we can no longer rely on the test to be worth anything. But that idea has apparently escaped the Florida legislators who are trying to move along students who apparently couldn’t handle the test.

Even if you don’t agree with standardized testing, and I am wary of using them as the ultimate rulestick, you must agree that it sets a bad example when lawmakers break the rules to bandage over a deeper problem. If the students aren’t getting the material, change teaching styles or revise the material. Don’t break down the walls simply to deny a problem.

2

So basically as long as they don’t have to admit that there’s something wrong, they’re ok. Just push the kids along to someone else and close the door to your office and lock it tight so nobody can come ask what the fuck you’re smoking.

Just make sure you’ve got enough to last a while…

[sub]Don’t most 4-year colleges require that one have graduated from high school?[/sub]

3

[Emphasis mine.] Apparently not, punha.

4

Well, if it’s any consolation, I sincerely doubt that any of the students who get into college through a loophole will in fact be capable of finishing an associate’s degree, much less a bachelor’s.

5

That’s a job for the next loophole.

6

I have to wonder how many of these kids who can’t pass this test are even interested in going to college. For an education, I mean, as opposed to four years of partying and football and frat/dorm life and such.

Would it make a difference if we got politicians out of the picture and left education to the educators?? Or is that too radical a notion?

7

These kids are going to get a rude shock if/when they hit college, and realize there aren’t any loopholes.

I think we have to accept the fact that there will be a certain percentage of the population who will fail, just as there is a certain percentage who will exceed beyond all expectations. No amount of bar-lowering is going to help everyone. There are going to be some who can’t or won’t be helped.

After all, we can’t all be brain surgeons.

8

They want to get into college and can’t even graduate high school with a ‘C’ average?

That’s fucking stupid. It’s high school, not rocket science. Or do the legislators want to have geriatric care workers who can’t read their prescriptions properly when they get shuffled off to the old folks home?

9

Erm, the FCAT has nothing to do with GPA or grades. Nothing. At all. In any way. Period.

I know for a fact that effort has a large impact on grades. Effort does not make nearly the same impact on standardized test scores. Some kids really do try, but just aren’t that smart. Some kids just aren’t smart enough to pass this test.

I know someone who failed. Her grades are alright, mainly B’s. She really does try. But she isn’t passing high school because of the test.

It’s not like she’s looking to be a damn brain surgeon. Just a high-school graduate.

I loathe these test on many levels. Besides the fact that students who try but aren’t smart will fail whereas students who don’t give a shit and put no effort forth will score well, there is also the funding issue.

Schools are funded (at least here) largely based on how well the student body does on the test. You can be an A school, a B school or a C school. C schools don’t get as much money as the other 2. The state won’t raise funding to them until they raise their FCAT scores. So lots of time and effort is taken out of the curriculum the teachers would like to teach and put instead into teaching standardized test information to the entire school, including the IB and AP kids, who are practically guaranteed to pass. They need to because they must take every precaution. They MUST raise that grade. They need the money badly.

Of course, much of what is on standardized tests is drivel. It must be taught anyway. ALL of what is on standardized tests is boring and causes students to lose interest. It must be taught as well. Of course, the more calloused among you will try to start in on how life isn’t all fun and games, but believe it or not, many students will pay attention and learn a lot from interesting curriculum.

Students hate it because it either A) may possibly keep them from graduating despite their best efforts (if they aren’t too intelligent) or B) waste their time and bore them because they are practically guaranteed to pass it, and the time that teachers are required by their principles to spend teaching standardized test drivel could be used to teach something that is helpful, informative, educating and interesting.

Teachers hate it too. This is not the crap they became teachers for. Here comes the “suck-it-up” crowd again, but that’s important too. It’s harder to care about a job when it has no appeal to you and you can’t even do what you went into the field to do.

What I would suggest, in case you are interested, is that the state fund based on how many students a school has, but this would make sense and that’s just dangerous.

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Earl of the CC -

I understand your concerns, but with respect, in the real world, there is no “A” for effort. It isn’t about how hard you try, it’s about what you know and how you apply it. To apply the incredibly tired cliche example, do you want your heart surgeon to be someone who “tried their guts out” to understand heart surgery, but couldn’t grasp the concepts sufficent to pass the MCATs, or do you want someone who didn’t really try to finish the homework, but knows what the hell he’s doing? Granted, I think we’d all like a combination of the positive aspects of both, but if it came down to it, which would you prefer? These are kids that’re trying to get into college, and they can’t pass a minimum skills test. And what little I know of these tests, no one who made it through high school should be able to flunk these tests. Your example of the “B” student who failed is a textbook (no pun intended) example of the concern that people who lobbied for the tests feel. How the hell did she make it through high school with a B average, yet can’t perform on a minimum skills test?

I know you’ve already dismissed this as a “suck it up” argument, but, well, yeah, suck it up. I may be alone, but I expect my teachers to be funded based at least in part on performance. Did they get the job done? I’m concerned by your statement that it’s all mindless, boring drivel. If it’s so damned minor, why don’t they know it already?

IMO, education requires commitment from all sides - students, teachers, parents, and adminstration, so I’m not trying to lay blame on any one group (I believe they all deserve blame, as does society in general). But let’s be fair and honest - student ability is pretty bad, no matter how you measure it, and testing, while it may not be perfect, is a way of introducing some accountability. Fine, it may not be optimal, but your argument that what we should be focussed on is how much the student tries, as opposed to how much he knows, is exactly what the OP seems to be upset about. “Well, they tried and failed, so let’s give 'em another shot at it.”

And I doubt seriously that the State doesn’t take into account the size of the student population. Back when I was in high school (granted some 20 years ago), the teachers had to fill out attendance slips, which (we were told) were sent to the State, and their budget was adjusted accordingly. Has that ceased to be?

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Like I said the person I was talking about isn’t aspiring to be some surgeon. Getting into medical school is a tad harder than passing the FCAT so your “Fear the idiot surgeon” argument is bunk.

And I’m sure it’s based partially on student population, but a large segment of the funding, enough to make administrators insane over it, is based on stadardized tests.

The material is only mindless drivel to people who pass easily. Intelligent students have their time wasted by getting that material taught.

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Officially, yeah. Some places, though, will accept promising students who don’t graduate for whatever reason (not that that’s too likely here). I know people who got their GED halfway through college, and one person who has a BA but no high school diploma or GED.

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Gosh, thanks! You’re right; I am too stupid to be finishing two undergraduate science degrees without having graduated from high school. Thanks to your timely interjection, I’ll be hurrying down to registration first thing Monday in order that I can correct their egregious error in allowing me into their school.

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And how the devil did this hypothetical surgeon graduate with a degree if s/he was so incompetent? They don’t pass them out like candy, you know, simply because you’ve managed to get into a community college. If someone is capable of graduating with a Bachelor’s degree, then I don’t care if they flunked every class they took in high school, much less not passing some idiotic standardized piece of BS. It’s high school, for Christ’s sake–pointless, boring, condenscending, and full-to-bursting with teachers forced to cater to the lowest common denominator and make busywork. I skipped high school almost entirely and went straight to college and my education hasn’t suffered one whit for it.

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Excuse me? You’re telling me that you could not meet the requirements for high school, the high school wrote you out some meaningless piece of paper anyway, and you went on to get two undergraduate degrees? None of the colleges that I am familiar with allow students to enroll without a high school diploma or equivelent. Is there a back story here you’ld like to fill us in on before you get all righteously pompous on my ass?

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I know someone currently about a year away from getting her PhD who has no HS diploma or equivalent. Although I doubt the PhD program people even checked on this; they took her based on her BA.

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This is why standerdized testing is fucking stupid. This FCAT is not about how smart you are or your learning level or anything. It’s just about how well your test taking skills are. A totally worthless real world skill.

You all have to understand high schools nowadays. All they teach you is what is going to be on the test. Nothing practical or challenging to your brain, just mindless drone stuff to memorize quotes and stupid shit.

I know plenty of people who pratically fail highschool and go on to do great in college. These tests are in no way a reflection of intelligence.

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I don’t have to fill you in on anything; your exceedingly limited experiences with the admissions requirements for colleges in your area do not make you a national expert. Attempts to imply that those who did not follow the traditional educational path are somehow incompetent and stupid reflects poorly on you, not me.

Perhaps if you tried reading and understanding Derleth’s post, you wouldn’t come across as a pompous buffoon. Of course, there’s also that crazed notion of research, but I wouldn’t expect you to understand something so terribly complex.

Given the number of people I know who did not graduate from high school and have gone on to become doctors, physicists, chemists, and mathematicians, I’d say that your tiny world view is pretty seriously flawed.

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High stakes testing is a moronic political solution to problems the polititians helped to create in the first place. They spend years disrespecting teachers wont prosecute students who assault teachers, or each other for that matter, allow parents to sue when their children get caught cheating, or when they cant be the only valadictorian, and somehow are surprised when there is not much learning going on in schools. Perhaps if they fix what they broke it might work better. Perhaps if it was a better test. Test real life skills. Can the students balance a checkbook. How do you handle a credit card. Can they write a business letter. Can they understand what they read, and act on it. All of these things are possible to teach, and even to test, but not as they are designing the test, and not when teachers are teaching to that test.

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**xcheopis **

  1. You’re right that my comment about “colleges that I’m familiar with” was pretty damn stupid. There’s no excuse for that.

  2. Well, from the little bit of your story that you are willing to share, I can gather that you did not recieve a high school diploma, through a loophole or not. So what does my comment have to do with your degree?

  3. If it is possible for a bright, promising individual to go to college without a high-school diploma, why not just let these students do so?

  4. Yes, as this thread has shown, it is possible for a bright, promising individual to go to college without a high-school diploma. Possible. However, Straight Dope anecodal evidence to the contrary, most people who do badly in high school are not well-read, literate scholars who are simply bored with the material. Most people who do badly in high school don’t know the material. It doesn’t matter whether this is because of stupidity or laziness- why should they be given a diploma?

I stand by what I said, even if I did say it in jest. Have you looked at the sample FCATs? Much as I hate the concept of standardized testing, it’s incredibly basic stuff. You are proving yourself in college, but I doubt that most people who cannot pass the FCATs could. Which brings us back to what does my comment have to do with your degree?