No Daughter of Eve.

Great Debates
1

I pose this question to the religious members of the Straight Dope. Although the non religious will certainly be posting their opinions, I really don’t intend to deal with the issue of whether God exists. Nor do I feel obliged to pose that as a hypothetical. If the issue is so important to you that you feel you must bring it up, then fine, I am an idiot, devoid of reason, and logic. You are greatly superior to me, and everyone else in the thread. You win. Your work here is done. Move along.

So, on to the actual point of the thread. First a hypothetical, human cloning happens, and cloned humans live beyond the stage of embryo, and are implanted in human host mothers, and are born. These are accomplished facts for the sake of the argument. Further, one particular human clone has been created that has had extensive genetic modifications made to her during the fertilization process. She has superior immune response to many diseases, has a more efficient mitochondrial structure, has the blood vessels behind the retina, does not have any identified alleles for cancer, or any identified disease, etc. As a result she not the direct genetic descendant of any individual human who ever existed, but is rather only the daughter of mankind.

The birth takes place. The child now lives. Basically, my question is this: Could you raise this little girl as your own child, in your own church, and confidently assure her that she is the beloved child of God? Could she possibly be Jewish? Does the Catholic Church get to decide if she has a soul? Will your church allow her to become a member, should she honestly wish to be? How about a pastor or priest? Can a member of your church be married to her? Can her children become members?

Can she be your daughter? Can you love her?

Tris

2

I think that where there’s sentience, there’s a soul. I’m not persuaded that specific genetic heritage is all that relevant, and no matter what henetic bits were used to put together this girl, they all came from God initially anyway.

So I don’t see any reason I wouldn’t consider her a daughter and love her, and no reason the Catholic Church wouldn’t or shouldn’t baptize her.

3

From what I know both of general Church doctrines and of human nature, I believe the answer to all your questions is yes.

4

Heck, I’d want to have children with her.

5

What they said. My “church” would certainly accept her, and I as her parent would accept her. If I would have no problem adopting someone else’s genetic offspring, I would certainly have no problem parenting “nobody’s” child. I don’t think genetics determines parenthood.

I don’t think souls (or spirits, or whatever term we can use for convenience’s sake) are created by DNA, either. I don’t humans are the only ones that can have them, so I’m not worried about her not having one in a meaningful sense. If she can wonder and delight at the creations of the Divine, she’s got soul enough for me.

6

Conservative Judaism determines whether or not she’s Jewish by birth by whether her birth mother is. The birth mother is the one who actually had the child in her womb, not the woman who provided the genetic material. If she came from an embryo that was implanted in the womb of a Jewish woman, she would be Jewish by birth according to the Conservative movement.

Reform would say that, if at least one of the parents who raise her is Jewish and she is raised Jewish, then she’s Jewish, regardless of the circumstances of her conception and birth.

Orthodoxy is split on this subject. Different rabbis might rule differently.

Even if she wasn’t Jewish by birth, there is a procedure for converting minor children (it’s used by Jewish parents who adopt, for example). I can’t think of any reason why she wouldn’t be eligible for that. In practice, an Orthodox rabbi would probably do this if he had any doubt over whether she could be considered Jewish.

If she were raised non-Jewish, and wanted to convert later in life, no problem- they don’t ask you any questions about the circumstances of your conception or birth, other than whether or not your mother was Jewish (in which case, you wouldn’t need to convert). In any case, they don’t ask any questions about your genetic material, nor do they look to see if you have blood vessels in front of your retinas or not.

If she’s considered Jewish by whatever movement she wants to join a synagogue in, yes. If she weren’t, I can’t think of any reason why she wouldn’t be allowed to convert in that movement, and then she could join.

Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism would allow her to be if she was considered Jewish by their standards. Orthodoxy wouldn’t, but that’s because they don’t allow women rabbis.

If she was considered to be born Jewish by the movement she was marrying in, yes. If she converted, there would be a problem in Orthodoxy if she wanted to marry a cohen, but that’s the same as for any other woman who converts to Judaism.

Yes.

I agree with this.

Not if you raised her as your daughter, I hope… :eek:

7

This I think is one of the reasons various churches don’t want cloning. If we have a normal child without a god-dispensed soul, some will take that as evidence against the existence of a soul. Which is a little weird, since there is no evidence *for *it’s existence.

I’m pretty sure the catholic church is *afraid *of cloned children.

Now me, I have no problem with cloning. In fact, run me off a copy of Jessica Alba when you get a chance.

8

And then in chapter three or four we find out,…she has no conscience at all.
cue dark music.
It’s an interesting premise. I’ve wondered about clones myself. I’ve wondered if in our journey as spirit we select who our parents will be not only for genetic reasons but for environmental as well.

Clones raise a different issue. Genetically identical.

Anywho, in this case I’m sure their are those who would view this person as some sort of offense to god. Not I. Whatever her genetic gifts if she is a conscious human and spirit exists in anyway close to how I envision it then she’s a welcome addition to our family.

9

Oh, hush, ya prude. We’re talking the future of the human race, here.
:smiley:

10

But how is that any different than identical twins? One egg, one sperm, one blastocyst – oops! Now two blastocysts! Two embryos, two fetuses, two babies, two unique, yet genetically identical, people.

Me, I don’t think the soul enters the body at conception, so it’s not a brain teaser for me. There’s two fetuses and somewhere along the line, a soul will inhabit each one, just like any singleton fetus. (I think, based on observations of micropreemies, that the soul goes in and out for quite a while until it decides to stay in the body - rather the reverse of what I’ve observed in slowly dying people, where the soul flits in and out for longer periods of time until it just doesn’t come back.)

11

See Gen. 19:30-38 for ultra hot (non-cloned) incest action.

12

I would think any Christian denomination would simply rely on whether or not the child was Baptized.

But maybe the question the OP is asking needs to be re-worded, because I don’t see what the issue is, as stated. Are you wondering: How much genetic manipulation would it take to turn a human into a non-human (ie, a creature without a soul)? I don’t see any reason why a few tweaks here and there would make any difference, but at some point one would have to ask if the humanity barrier had been broken.

13

There have been people like that in every religion. That’s hardly a new problem for any of them.

14

My sisters are clones of each other, it’s just that the cloning occured by accident.

So which of my sisters is the one with the soul and which one is the soul-less zombie?

15

I think the real question is how would organized religion adapt to animal-human hybrids.

16

You’ve observed souls flitting in and out of people? Did you take any pictures? Maybe you should alert the scientific community.

17

Well, let’s see -

My daughter is not cloned, but she is clearly superior to all other daughters on earth - smart (did I mention she got straight A’s again on her mid-terms?), beautiful beyond compare, thoroughly charming, warm-hearted and generous, loving to her father, mother, brother, and other relatives, popular, loves the Lord, and generally radiates charm into every corner of her world.

So I think I might be able to manage to love someone like that of the OP as a daughter, and my church doesn’t seem to have any problem with accepting her when she affirmed her baptism last year. She doesn’t seem to be Jewish, and her uncle the Roman Catholic priest doesn’t seem to have issues with her soul.

As far as our church is concerned, she can marry anyone she wants. And may God have mercy on his soul.

ISTM that the issues are not significantly different from those of adopted parents. (My kids are adopted from South Korea, and are differently genetically from me and my wife.) Unless you meant some other kinds of issues.

Me neither.

Regards,
Shodan

18

While that site pokes fun at Bush, those people are simply ignorant. There are experiments going on right now which involve inserting human genes into animals. Some of these are readily accepted (like the ones which allow cows to produce human insulin in their milk), but others are extremely controversial, even within the scientific community-- ie, inserting into mice one of the the gene which is known to cause the human brain to grow large. The scientists involved in those experiments are careful to destroy the mice fetuses before they are born, but accidents do happen. This is a case where a non-fallacious slippery slope does exist.

Now, I can understand the derision at Bush’s sense of priorities on this issue, but to pretend that it isn’t an issue, or that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about (as one poster to that site mused) is flat out ignorant.

19

Should we take as a given that the parent(s) authorized and desired the genetic engineering resulting in the improvements you described? If so, I think we can take as a given that the parents had already removed the concept of a creation deity from the equation, can’t we?

I doubt such parents would have strong, life-affirming religious underpinnings. But let’s say they did belong to some sort of organized Christian denomination and attended church, even if only on Sundays, and acknowledged the existence of a higher power, if only in the abstract. The answer to your question would then be yes, the parents could and probably would raise the child in their church. Why wouldn’t they? It’s simply another tradition the family follows. I see no conflict.

Would they be able to confidently assure the child that she is the beloved child of God? I don’t believe that would be a desire for these parents, if we take the presumptions I made above. Religion for parents such as these, again, in my opinion, wouldn’t get this deep.

Of course the child could be Jewish, and probably would be if the parents are. Again, I don’t think we’re talking about Orthadox Jews here, but your average, run of the mill reformists and JINOs.

Does the Catholic church decide who has a soul now? Non issue. Your other issues are likewise moot as the church probably wouldn’t have a clue about the girl’s genetic makeup, nor, I believe, would they care, as adding and maintaining congregants is what matters.

Except for any potential legal complications, such as in the case of women who bear children for others, the act of gestation trumps all. Yes, she would be the mother’s daughter…and be loved.

20

I know all that, but when he said it, the way that he said it – with such deadpan seriousness and trepidation and with a total absence of content or explanation – it was funny. He sounded like Bela Legosi delivering a speech in an Ed Wood movie.